Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:18 pm

First off...Thanks you folks at NISA for having the stones to localize the sequel.
Like a lot of folks, I disdain censorship with a passion and frankly, it did feel overboard and a little more than off putting when Invite Only released. The extra fog and zero audio during Motivation actually made the whole thing creepier and threw off the experience in a way. That said, it was mainly removing the audio that added the extra creeper levels in the edited content...and well, was the worst move as far as edits go. I understand the logic but considering the thematic premise here...it just didn't make sense, but we are a pretty prudish culture in the weirdest ways...almost to the point of mass immaturity...but I digress.

For the sequel as well, I just can't agree with removing the audio....silence is creepy and doesn't evoke anything close to consent and is missing the point as far as presentation goes.

People may find the mini games pointless, but I liked them. It gave me, their coach/warden/taskmaster free rein to boost characters and unlock stories...plus the BDSM element is so softcore that it's almost laughable, plus the mini games were fun. The real world is....much more...colorful than anything CG shows us...plus, you're in hell and that's as bad as it gets? Anyway, my point is that it baffles me on the things we find fault with gameplay wise when you don't consider things as a whole. Control is the point here along with atonement and, regardless of views, consent to said atonement in hell is a moot point. Of course that's in story and another matter entirely.

The real world...is way more convoluted than that. Reading through these posts is glaring proof of that.
As a fan I can sympathize on issues and decisions that, as a fan, seem to lack credibility in their defense and seem like pandering lip service to the fans....and that might be the case on some level. Sincerity in business dealings only really means anything to the jobs at stake and no amount of saying "we can't talk about because of X, Y or Z" is going to make that percieved loss of credibility any less so. Fans and consumers are rather greedy and entitled little snots that way. Considering we buy products you (or anyone really) are able/willing to sell, it makes sense that we would think that way. But uncensored content doesn't really exist at all in this industry and expecting it is, while ideal, delusional as long as ratings boards and social context exist as they do....NISA isn't at fault there regardless of how badly they make their decisions based on the current trends at times.

Morality is irrelevant to business practice, only legality and ethics need/warrent consideration. Talking about one thing in terms of another is idiotic and if you're concerned about morality in the eternainment business outside of the personal, than you're in the wrong line of work...period. Arguments claiming otherwise are wrong and just put the cart before the horse, which we love doing apparently.

In that light NISA is only trying to do ethically and legally (a bit too far to save their skin perhaps but another matter entirely) and while I find censorship abhorrent in principle the fact that they went so far as to go to the original artist to preserve the aesthetic (live 2D and all)as much as possible and keep text/translation as close to the original content says something in trying to meet fans' expectations given the trends and weird decision making. That's worth something to respect in my view...though I just cant agree about removing the Motivation audio... silence is just creepy and doesn't evoke consrnt at all in this case...it's like you gagged the girls...anyway...

Look...if I could understand Kanji better than I do I might've been inclined to import to spite the self righteous moralizing PC culture and the businesses slave to its rhetoric but that's not accomplishing anything other than self gratification....so I will support the game's western release in spite of its flaws in localization, rather my own disagreement on its handling decisions.

It's a good series that had an accurate translation, of what all I could look up and cross reference....that and I want to at least respect and acknowledge the effort to bring over the sequel of a decent game. Navigating localizations isn't an easy task...fans' expectations, ire and vitriol on one side and the redtape and pointlessly convoluted business hoops and protocol on the other...Money truly is a despairing thing, motivation and intentions notwithstanding.

Seriously though...and I would very much like a response here NISA.
You are doing your absolute best to keep the story, characters and dialogue as close to original as linguistically possible yes? The age references are irrelevant, that'sa point of legal tightrope walking and understandable...I'm talking about where it matters. Editing on moral grounds is unforgivable and misplaced. Doing that would make the game an inferior product. You did a decent job with Invite Only but I just, as a fan, want some assurances on keeping what matters intact.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:29 pm

FAQ wrote:6. What about the story and characters?
Other than some specific instances where characters’ apparent ages are mentioned, no significant changes have been made to the dialogue or story. It’s still Criminal Girls 2: Party Favors.


Prinny Supervisor wrote:
AdventSign wrote:Was any part of the story changed in Criminal Girls 2? Like any part of it toned down text wise? Aside from the "Motivation" scene text I mean. If it was, can you post some of it here so I can kind of get a full story while playing the game?


No. Other than terminology changes consistent with the first game (and making a few further changes to lines of dialogue to make that terminology make sense in the game's universe) and some mentions of apparent ages of the characters, none of the dialogue was drastically changed from the original. None of the story has been "toned down".


Does that answer your question? ^^
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:14 pm

I suppose it does, if mildly.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:36 pm

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:You are doing your absolute best to keep the story, characters and dialogue as close to original as linguistically possible yes? The age references are irrelevant, that'sa point of legal tightrope walking and understandable...I'm talking about where it matters. Editing on moral grounds is unforgivable and misplaced. Doing that would make the game an inferior product. You did a decent job with Invite Only but I just, as a fan, want some assurances on keeping what matters intact.


None of the story has been edited in any way that seriously warrants the term "censorship", if that makes sense. The translation and editing of the script of this game, after changing lines that obviously "age" a character or would no longer make sense with the game's terminology changes, is handled just like I would handle any other. No changes are being made to the dialogue or story to "tone it down" at all.The lesbians aren't cousins, there's no shadow realm, and the rice balls aren't donuts, either.

And I hear your concerns about the muted sounds during Motivation scenes. The background music and sound effects are still there, but the voice tracks are removed. We are still working with the devs to see exactly what we can salvage from the voice tracks, if at all possible (the dialogue itself, however, is going to be removed no matter what).
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:46 pm

That's good...and a much better answer.

I don't envy the rough going work, but I can thoroughly respect with closely working with the developers...it goes a really long way.

Kudos on the references by the way...All the reasons I avoided playing Persona on the PSone back when....ugh. *shudders*.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby dromans » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:11 am

Ringwraith wrote:It'll probably be the same version as the originally localised one on PC, because making another version would be a big time and money sink that the game isn't going to make back in sales in all liklihood.
Unless they port parts from the Japanese version (so it has the Japanese text), it'll just be the same as the international one.
Depends, I doubt this will happen, but for example Valkyria Chronicles' PC port isn't even available to buy In Japan.

All NIS(A) published games on Steam are also available in Japan with full Japanese language support. Actually what I'm also wondering is how will the JP side explain the censorship to potential Japanese customers.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby MikuruX » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:37 pm

Jeez.....I'm kinda wondering but why can't ya just go for a "Mature 17+" rating or do you absolutely have to get this game into a Gamestop or some other vendor? Hell, I'm surprised that Gal Gun: Double Peace (which has gotten my money just now)can go uncensored and scavage away at a Mature 17+ rating but this game can't. At any rate, no use in trying to convince NISA about this since they're hell bent on wanting to appease the ESRB anyway. For a niche title, it's not like anyone has high expectations of this selling like hot cakes so why not just shoot for the M17+ rating. You guys just got it stuck in your head that you're going to get a AO rating off the top.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Battlechili » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:14 pm

The_Dood_Abides wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to read this if you do, and I apologize if I've broken any rules. I have no intention of coming off as rude or disrespectful. I just do not want to water down my feelings on the issue.


Likewise, thank you for sharing your thoughts and concerns with us. I'd like to direct you to PS's most recent post, as his thoughts on this matter echo my own sentiments:

Prinny Supervisor wrote:The "censoring" of this game is in no way an attempt to "pander" or "market" to certain people. It is in no way a response to any anticipatory backlash by "feminists" or "SJWs". Understand that these edits were done to bring the game down to an M (and equivalent) from an AO, not from an M to an M (but with less sexual content) or T. We know what game we're making, y'all. It's from our parent company.

If this game required no edits whatsoever from the ESRB and was released with an M rating, I would love it. I would rejoice. All of the "SJWs" in the world could send me death threats over email, form a picket line outside the office, egg my house, set my car on fire, and write essays and give television interviews about how Criminal Girls 2 is the most abhorrent game ever made and no civilized person should ever play it and shame on everyone involved in its creation...and I would prefer it to having to deal with all of this "censorship" drama.

Don't ever, ever believe that we want to censor things.
I'm not quoting this too late, but I just wanted to say that in no way do I believe NISA is trying to avoid backlash from feminists, "SJWs", or any sort of silly thing like that, and I hope I wasn't implying such in my post. Just that I take issue with the way the game was handled in localization.
Rednal wrote:I wouldn't expect this. Creating multiple versions of games is very expensive. Furthermore, if the content was changed, it would need to be re-rated. If they could have gotten away without the edits, I genuinely think they would have done so. Editing games is quite costly, and they try to avoid it as much as they can. (It literally makes more financial sense to minimize edits, rather than taking out things that don't need to be changed. And that's what happens.)

Well, yes, it is expensive, but are not Disgaea PC and Phantom Brave PC inherently different from other versions of the games in that they take content from various different versions of the games and put them all to one in order to make the best release possible? Would an uncensored Criminal Girls on PC be very much different from doing that? Forgive me, I don't know the inner details of how creating these ports work. Its just, that these games essentially already are different versions of the games, taking content from a few different versions to create one definitive release. And as far as ESRB goes, it is possible to release games unrated on PC. I know NISA said its against company policy to do this, but in this very forum its already been said that if one takes issue with their policies regarding their games, its fine to speak of such as was said right here: viewtopic.php?f=123&t=16915&start=135#p886973 And, well, I guess I can say that I take issue with such a policy.
Rednal wrote:Remember, the original publisher keeps basically all of the rights for the game. Things only happen with their permission. The localized game you get is the game the original creators ultimately decided to offer you. They can say "no" at any time, and NISA would have to accept that.
Oh I know! Or rather, I would assume as much. It'd seem extremely unlikely to me that localization companies would do things without permission from their parent company. Rather, and I don't pretend to know all the goings on in the game localization process so forgive me if I misunderstand, but I had figured that people agreeing to something saying they are okay with it when asked isn't the same as being the original intention of the creators from the get-go. There's an inherent difference between wanting to do something with a game yourself, and being asked if its okay to make a certain change to a game from those working down below.

Rednal wrote:My reasons for disagreeing with these feelings are explained in detail above. To recap, however, I believe the opposite - that buying the edited games actually supports the company, encourages them to continue pushing boundaries, and will ultimately result in games not needing to be edited at all. I also believe that your views, though you clearly mean well for the industry, are actually more likely to hurt it than help it.
However, above all the things you've said, this one in particular I take issue with the most/don't understand. Buying a game essentially says to a company that you are happy with their product, correct? Or at least happy enough to buy it in the state they released it in. I don't see buying edited games as saying to a company "I like your more extreme oriented games" but as "I like your game localization". While I can see people purchasing games like Criminal Girls sending the message "I want more games like this", I can't see it as saying "I want these games uncensored/with less edits". I can see such purchases en masse just resulting in more games like Criminal Girls being brought over, but I see no reason to assume that any messages are sent beyond that. People often say one should speak with their wallet when regarding purchases, however I've noticed there's a constant fear that not buying a game sends messages like "we don't want games like this" which isn't good either. Which is why I think its important that if someone doesn't buy something, they explain why to the company that released that something. That way, the company knows what the problem is while not assuming there wasn't interest in such a game.
Rednal wrote:I think you should buy a used copy of Criminal Girls 1, and play it. NISA will not receive any of your money if you do this, and so you'll be able to actually experience the end result of their editing choices without supporting them, per se. Take a careful look at things throughout the game (including extras, like the Gallery), and form a final opinion only after you've actually played it. I think you may find that it's not nearly as bad as you currently seem to believe it is.[/spoiler]
Of course I'll check it out sometime. Its definitely something I want to try, and I may do just that in the future.
Though for now, I will still wait and see what happens regarding Criminal Girls' PC release beforehand, just to be sure. Even if it isn't released uncensored, if mods are a thing I'd be happy to buy it then. Though I shouldn't have to count on mods.
Prinny Supervisor wrote:Just a couple of things about your post. For one, you are absolutely correct in that submitting to the ESRB is expensive and time-consuming (also, don't forget this game has to be rated by other boards, and they don't work for free, either). But in terms of being "worth it", that's a decision that's made by the higher-ups at this company and our parent company. They're the ones working with budgets and projected sales and their jobs on the line, so if they do all the math and decide it isn't worth it, I think it's easy to see where they're coming from.

And as for respect to the original developer, the developer for this project was NIS, our parent company. We chat with those guys daily, and they are technically "above" us. We aren't forcing them to make any changes to the game that would compromise their vision. We never do that, for any project. We are a publishing company, and we only publish what the original developers are 100% happy with. They have the final say, not us. We would never want to come across as a thieving publisher, or one that just buys up properties to change how we want. For every title that we release, we are partners with the developers, working in tandem to create a localization. Respect to the original is high on both our and our developer's priorities list.

I understand. At the end of the day there are people who make decisions as to whether or not making a choice in localization is worth it and its their jobs to do so, and to question that as a consumer is being somewhat disrespectful to the people who make these kinds of decisions, and I can absolutely see where they are coming from with regards to determining whether how the game is released is worth it or not. I only speak as a consumer interested in seeing a product released in such a way, and am by no means trying to say I know better than those people with the jobs that decide these things.

Regarding the respecting the original developer thing, I understand that, and I don't pretend to know much about the localization process, so forgive me if my assumption in how this works is incorrect. However, I'm sure you can understand that there's a difference between a game developer changing something themselves for its original release because they want it to be that way and a developer giving permission to a publisher to make changes it deems appropriate for various different regions. Again, if this isn't how it works, forgive me, I'm sorry and I don't mean to imply I know much about how it works. I'm just very picky about how games are localized.
Prinny Supervisor wrote:
pancakelizard wrote:I don't think this is fair, because I would really like to love NIS again, but your "company policies" prevent this from happening.

I would love to own this game too, but I'm not going to unless those company policies change.


I understand and respect that. And I don't want you to feel entirely discouraged. It's opinions like yours that get brought up every time we decide on whether or not we want to localize a title, believe me.
Just noticing this; please continue to do so whenever you localize a game! It means a lot and I'm glad you've been doing so. This is extremely important, and I think it'd be just awesome if you guys were able to release Criminal Girls on PC without an ESRB rating, if that's the only way it'd get on there uncensored.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:08 am

MikuruX wrote:Jeez.....I'm kinda wondering but why can't ya just go for a "Mature 17+" rating or do you absolutely have to get this game into a Gamestop or some other vendor? Hell, I'm surprised that Gal Gun: Double Peace (which has gotten my money just now)can go uncensored and scavage away at a Mature 17+ rating but this game can't. At any rate, no use in trying to convince NISA about this since they're hell bent on wanting to appease the ESRB anyway. For a niche title, it's not like anyone has high expectations of this selling like hot cakes so why not just shoot for the M17+ rating. You guys just got it stuck in your head that you're going to get a AO rating off the top.


...What makes you think they've got a problem with "Mature 17+"? I don't think literally anything they've ever done suggests that.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:29 am

Battlechili wrote:However, above all the things you've said, this one in particular I take issue with the most/don't understand. Buying a game essentially says to a company that you are happy with their product, correct? Or at least happy enough to buy it in the state they released it in. I don't see buying edited games as saying to a company "I like your more extreme oriented games" but as "I like your game localization". While I can see people purchasing games like Criminal Girls sending the message "I want more games like this", I can't see it as saying "I want these games uncensored/with less edits". I can see such purchases en masse just resulting in more games like Criminal Girls being brought over, but I see no reason to assume that any messages are sent beyond that. People often say one should speak with their wallet when regarding purchases, however I've noticed there's a constant fear that not buying a game sends messages like "we don't want games like this" which isn't good either. Which is why I think its important that if someone doesn't buy something, they explain why to the company that released that something. That way, the company knows what the problem is while not assuming there wasn't interest in such a game.


Oh, by all means, let a company know if there's a reason you didn't buy their game. That does help, even when there's not much they can do about it. ^^ I mean, if nothing else, they can share it with NIS over in Japan as part of an analysis of general consumer sentiment. (I'm pretty sure NIS knows by now that we don't like edits, for example - whether or not this actually gets them to avoid making things that need edits is kind of iffy, though, 'cuz they almost certainly still see Japan as their primary market. Also, the game-making process is a fairly long one and it can be even longer before they decide to localize a title, so you might not see changes in their strategy for a couple of years even if they do decide to be a little more global in their thinking.)

I expect companies to remain fairly constant on their messages ("We don't want to spend any more on editing than we really have to", etc.). Thing is, though, it's not really the company that needs to change. It's society as a whole, and society does change a little bit every time we see something that pushes a little past our boundaries. Humans are very adaptable that way, and basically, we just get used to it. :lol: For example, it used to be that swearing in movies was a big deal, but now people barely notice (unless, y'know, it's a kids movie or something). It has lost its power as a shocking thing because it's happened so many times. If people keep being exposed to anime fanservice and such, then in exactly the same way, it'll become more "normal". When that happens, there's no more need to edit it.

...Not in societies where that's the only issue, anyway. o_O As mentioned earlier in this thread, some countries also have national laws (not just the opinions of rating boards) that deal with the content in video games. Companies also have to take that into account if their games would run afoul of those laws, and until/unless those laws change, game publishers either have to make multiple versions of their game (which is really expensive), make one version of the game that's acceptable for all areas (which maximizes sales), or not sell in those areas (which requires less editing but also reduces sales).
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:16 pm

Hey guys, for anyone interested, I wanted to give a quick update. After talking with the developers, it was determined that it would not be possible to remove dialogue but keep moaning/single words during Motivation scenes. I deeply apologize for not being able to change that. The Motivation scenes will "sound" like they did in the first game, with music and sound effects but nothing coming from the girls.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:28 pm

It's saddening, but not surprising. Sometimes things just don't work out. Thanks for letting us know!
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:18 pm

Honestly, I wasn't expecting itat least...not with the way sound files tend to handled and the decisions on hand and in place.

Well, time to brace ourselves for creepy silence accompanied by the now out of place everything else ...but hey, you tried (?).

Honestly, censoring in games as a Western trend is...getting really out of hand here. The pandering changes made to SO 5 for example...ugh.

*sigh*
Well...it'd be nice to get the tracks as a "language option DLC" but like everything else, a pipedream given this nonsensical conservative culture we seem to have and endorse.

Thanks for trying (?) folks at NISA.
*looks away in disgust*

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:38 pm

Seriously though.

Thanks for the update and note my anger isn't directed at any one company or source.

Transparency goes a long way...still, it is a shame.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Abster » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:15 am

The premise to this game is real simple. This is a light hentai game sold almost entirely for its erotic value for young girls getting sexually molested as a form of torture, something Japan is just fine with because of its much lower age of consent. According to NISA's reasoning, keeping the moaning in would essentially get the game banned because the torture scenes would essentially be equated to full fledged child porn.

Honestly, at this point you'd be wasting LESS money NOT bringing the game here than bringing it through chopped into tiny pieces. The cultural differences are just too great to justify wasting your time/money bringing this thing here in the state that it is.


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