Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:40 am

I honestly believe that if they offered it on steam uncut it would put to rest most of the rumors of them "censoring because they hate their games", at the very least they would regain some goodwill, that's clearly not going to happen anytime soon though. I'll hardly blame anyone who in the future is going to resent NISA, at this point they have earned all the criticism they'll get.

MikuruX wrote:Wait......they still sell Tamagotchi's?


No idea, but there's an (overpriced) app for iOS and Android by Bandai Namco which my friends managed to make me download after I was drunk enough, I fell asleep and forgot about it letting it die in its poop.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:14 am

knightnightmare wrote:The Map editor was changed so you couldn't make naughty things with it. I guess SCEA requires you to have a mod watch over things that could be made perverse. That's what I always gathered from what happened anyways.


I don't know anything about that project specifically, but that sounds plausible. Any kind of "online interaction", including shareable maps, gets more scrutiny from ratings boards. To address an earlier point though, to my knowledge, the only games that NISA has censored to any degree are Mugen Souls, Mugen Souls Z, Criminal Girls, and Criminal Girls 2.

RandomR wrote:Which makes me wonder why people at NISA/NIS/whatever are willing to spend such a big amount of money to rate the game and prevent an unrated version while using the costs as an excuse not to make edits at the same time? I mean wouldn't spending money (or saving it depending on the costs) for an unrated release be better since it would make most people happy? I mean it's legal and there's no rating board in the way.


This isn't specifically my department, so I can only speculate, but I imagine that one of the primary reasons that Steam content is kept the same as what was in the localized version is because they are direct ports from the released console versions. That's the "base" if you will that the porting programmers start with. It's easier for them to port a finished product than to make changes and revisions during a port.

And as always in the world of video games and especially publishing, there are legal matters to consider such as licensing. Again, this is speculation (and any specifics would be under an NDA anyway), but it's important to keep in mind that a lot of "why isn't this included?" questions can be answered with "because they didn't have the rights to it in this country".

I will say again that I am trying to get as much weight as I can behind an argument for making an unrated, uncensored Criminal Girls 2 on Steam, but without surveys and sales numbers, there's little to go on. I did some cursory research and discovered for example that there are no thorough surveys/petitions for CG2 coming to Steam uncensored. Without something like that, all we really have to go on in terms of numbers are like...youtube comments. Which, y'know. Come on.

MikuruX wrote:So I'm just going to leave this here and wonder....was removing the audio really necessary if another company can get away with it?


First, keep in mind that there is a crucially important distinction between a woman moaning in pleasure and a girl with a very childish voice yelping in pain and saying "stop, it hurts". Surely you can see how the sounds of a BDSM-themed dubious-consent sexual minigame differ from a lighthearted, silly, over-the-top, "oh no, you can see my panties!" game. Context is important.

Second: "necessary"? Maybe not. This is something that was addressed in our blog post, and I'll restate it here. We might have landed an M with the sound still intact. But NISA did not want to take that risk as a company.

And third, keep in mind that there was also the localization aspect of those lines to consider. The game does not have subtitles, so there is no way to convey to the player what is being said by the girls in those scenes. Inserting subtitles of some kind would be a programming decision, which is not what we do as publishers.

RandomR wrote:Now please if you excuse me I'll go get ready for when the police will come and bust my door open because I let my tamagotchi die in poop, I clearly committed a heinous crime against a fictional being made of pixels and deserve nothing short of the death penalty for my monstrous act.

That is yet another jab at the ESRB and their concern about pixels


Well first off thank you for at least acknowledging that I didn't invent the idea of "consent" and "power distance", because there are many folks out there who still think that somehow NISA came up with that terminology. But anyway, I think it has to be said that, no, the ESRB isn't making the claim that there's a direct equivalence between a video game and the real world. If you kill someone in CoD, the ESRB is not saying "you are a murderer for killing in this video game", they're saying "this video game has depictions of murder, which the player is in control of". There is a difference there. So in regards to CG2 specifically, the concern of the ESRB (and all ratings boards, really) is not "these girls are being sexually assaulted", it's "this video game depicts what can be interpreted as sexual assault". How depictions are handled is determined by society, but that's a much broader issue.

knightnightmare wrote:They are sending those to Steam to die, Mugen Souls is a shining example.


NISA has nothing to do with Mugen Souls on Steam, we don't handle that.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:43 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:This isn't specifically my department, so I can only speculate, but I imagine that one of the primary reasons that Steam content is kept the same as what was in the localized version is because they are direct ports from the released console versions. That's the "base" if you will that the porting programmers start with. It's easier for them to port a finished product than to make changes and revisions during a port.

And as always in the world of video games and especially publishing, there are legal matters to consider such as licensing. Again, this is speculation (and any specifics would be under an NDA anyway), but it's important to keep in mind that a lot of "why isn't this included?" questions can be answered with "because they didn't have the rights to it in this country".

Yes, I have acknowledged in another post that I wouldn't be surprised to see the same assets/no changes between the Vita and the Steam version, because that WOULD make sense from an economical point of view,
Spoiler:
but the fact that whoever decided it has spent a lot of money to rate it and not for the changes is the baffling thing, it shows NISA is WILLING to spend money/invest resources, just not for releasing an uncut version.

EDIT: I was wrong about spending more money in order to rate the game as evidenced by Prinny Supervisor's post, that part of the text has been put into spoiler tag, so that quotes are "preserved" but people know that what I had written was a mistake.

Prinny Supervisor wrote:I will say again that I am trying to get as much weight as I can behind an argument for making an unrated, uncensored Criminal Girls 2 on Steam, but without surveys and sales numbers, there's little to go on. I did some cursory research and discovered for example that there are no thorough surveys/petitions for CG2 coming to Steam uncensored. Without something like that, all we really have to go on in terms of numbers are like...youtube comments. Which, y'know. Come on.

It's rated, so there's zero chance now for CG2 I'm assuming(?? the way you worded that seems to imply there's still hope?), CG is still not rated though, also you'll get a lot of that feedback as soon as the steam page goes up and the forum will probably explode I assure you (if it's rated and with altered assets).

EDIT: threads like this one are the best you're gonna find so far

https://steamcommunity.com/app/405900/d ... 868007638/

http://steamcommunity.com/app/405900/di ... 3582035770

https://steamcommunity.com/app/409870/d ... 5565103595

on a side note, are you honestly saying that a petition would potentially change things?
Also don't the guys over at NIS that call the shots have enough evidence between THIS thread and the previous one over at CG forums? It seems baffling to me that they need MORE evidence.

Prinny Supervisor wrote:Well first off thank you for at least acknowledging that I didn't invent the idea of "consent" and "power distance", because there are many folks out there who still think that somehow NISA came up with that terminology. But anyway, I think it has to be said that, no, the ESRB isn't making the claim that there's a direct equivalence between a video game and the real world. If you kill someone in CoD, the ESRB is not saying "you are a murderer for killing in this video game", they're saying "this video game has depictions of murder, which the player is in control of". There is a difference there. So in regards to CG2 specifically, the concern of the ESRB (and all ratings boards, really) is not "these girls are being sexually assaulted", it's "this video game depicts what can be interpreted as sexual assault". How depictions are handled is determined by society, but that's a much broader issue.

I was 100% kidding with that sentence, hence I was exaggerating :p
Last edited by RandomR on Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:00 pm

RandomR wrote:It's rated, so there's zero chance now for CG2 I'm assuming(?? the way you worded that seems to imply there's still hope?), CG is still not rated though, also you'll get a lot of that feedback as soon as the steam page goes up and the forum will probably explode I assure you (if it's rated and with altered assets).

EDIT: threads like this one are the best you're gonna find so far

https://steamcommunity.com/app/405900/d ... 868007638/

http://steamcommunity.com/app/405900/di ... 3582035770

https://steamcommunity.com/app/409870/d ... 5565103595


There's hope in the sense that, technically, games on Steam don't need ratings. If it were to happen, we would basically just ignore the ESRB's rating entirely and specifically advertise that that the uncensored version (potentially) on Steam would be uncensored and unrated. As long as we don't use any of the same advertising material that we used for CG2 (ESRB has a hand in those things, that's why you see the ratings in advertisements), it should be possible. CG is already in the books, as it were (we announced that it was coming to Steam a while back and we've been constantly working it out), but CG2 has the slightest glimmer of an itty-bitty hope of coming to Steam uncensored, but that would require an exception to company policy and a very long meeting about budgets and scheduling, as has been stated. It's what I hope to see happen and will continue to advocate for until that last sliver of hope vanishes entirely. But keep in mind that this is entirely my personal opinion (as is everything else I post, but y'know), not NISA's official position. Do not quote it as such.

on a side note, are you honestly saying that a petition would potentially change things?
Also don't the guys over at NIS that call the shots have enough evidence between THIS thread and the previous one over at CG forums? It seems baffling to me that they need MORE evidence.



I'm not saying that it would change something that's already been set in motion, but it would definitely be interesting. It's something I would like to see. And yes, it is more relevant than threads and posts on social media, if you look at it from the perspective of the person running the numbers. This guy's got a budget that he needs to assign to a particular project, and I very much doubt that showing him nasty comments accomplishes much: to him, that's a PR issue, not a budget issue. But, show that same guy some numbers that say "doing it this way will literally make this company more money than it would spend", that's an attention-grabber. That's something that's exponentially easier to demonstrate with a survey than with a comment on a message board.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:18 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:There's hope in the sense that, technically, games on Steam don't need ratings. If it were to happen, we would basically just ignore the ESRB's rating entirely and specifically advertise that that the uncensored version (potentially) on Steam would be uncensored and unrated. As long as we don't use any of the same advertising material that we used for CG2 (ESRB has a hand in those things, that's why you see the ratings in advertisements), it should be possible.

Thanks for this I was actually wondering about the ratings in the videos, never asked cause it never was directly related to CG2 localization

Prinny Supervisor wrote: CG is already in the books, as it were (we announced that it was coming to Steam a while back and we've been constantly working it out), but CG2 has the slightest glimmer of an itty-bitty hope of coming to Steam uncensored, but that would require an exception to company policy and a very long meeting about budgets and scheduling, as has been stated. It's what I hope to see happen and will continue to advocate for until that last sliver of hope vanishes entirely. But keep in mind that this is entirely my personal opinion (as is everything else I post, but y'know), not NISA's official position. Do not quote it as such.

Well, "MEH" about the fact the the altered version of the first game is set in stone, less so about the second part... also yeh I'm not exepecting it to happen at this point.

Prinny Supervisor wrote:This guy's got a budget that he needs to assign to a particular project, and I very much doubt that showing him nasty comments accomplishes much: to him, that's a PR issue, not a budget issue. But, show that same guy some numbers that say "doing it this way will literally make this company more money than it would spend", that's an attention-grabber. That's something that's exponentially easier to demonstrate with a survey than with a comment on a message board.

MEH, are these people actually SO narrow minded that they'll can everything as "PR issue" as long as they don't see a petition? I mean what's even the point of providing feedback on the company forums if not even that is taken into account? :S

I noticed you didn't say anything about the company policy, more specifically why NIS/NISA is afraid of unrated games, I'm going to assume that's not something you can discuss/further elaborate on, and the only thing you're allowed to say is thst such policies exist.

Anyway thanks for replies, I would like say once again thet despite my posts being harsh I really appreciate the answers.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:36 pm

RandomR wrote:MEH, are these people actually SO narrow minded that they'll can everything as "PR issue" as long as they don't see a petition? I mean what's even the point of providing feedback on the company forums if not even that is taken into account? :S


No, there's just a lot to consider. Feedback is crucial to a lot of things, and it's never ignored, in any form (even the stuff that's just objectively dumb). NIS sees and evaluates a lot of different kinds of feedback, including what we send them directly (I believe I posted earlier about how we might do feedback, but that could be in nichegamer's thread). But if you want something very specific to happen in a very specific project, and there are economic obstacles involved, a survey says a lot. It's another form of feedback, a way of demonstrating directly rather than figuratively how a specific decision has an economic impact. Again, valuable feedback, not something that's treated completely differently.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:44 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:I believe I posted earlier about how we might do feedback, but that could be in nichegamer's thread

No it was here in this humongous thread, I'm sure I read it somewhere hence my "don't they have enough by now?" reaction.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby knightnightmare » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:58 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
knightnightmare wrote:The Map editor was changed so you couldn't make naughty things with it. I guess SCEA requires you to have a mod watch over things that could be made perverse. That's what I always gathered from what happened anyways.


knightnightmare wrote:They are sending those to Steam to die, Mugen Souls is a shining example.


NISA has nothing to do with Mugen Souls on Steam, we don't handle that.


I know you guys didn't I was using that as an example of what happens when a censored game goes to Steam. They had to discount it deeply before it would sell at all.

Because the problem is the community will think: Well NISA has cheaply ported these games to Steam rather than doing a complete version like IFI is doing with Monpiece. Now that may not be fair, but that's how it's gonna be.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:00 pm

I dunno if it's so much about "enough" as just not the right kind of feedback to make anyone at the "top" change their minds about the policy....Ultimately, posts and comments are just opinions and not quantifiable data in the same sense of surveys, sales figures or petitions.

If you're gonna consider something with an economic value/focus, than concrete numbers matter and are likely weighted more where budgets are concerned.

That only makes sense if the end goal is to make some kinda profit as a business though, everything else are separate, if very connected, issues.

Stuff that happens like no audio, as disgusting as that itself is, is viewed VERY differently on the publisher end...take the localization end on the no sound topic. I don't actually agree with it, and find that saying no subtitles equals no need is....off considering the context is more than a little clear from the first session on and isn't something players generally want removed anyway even if they don't know japanese.

Silence brought its own experience breaking problems and was, objectively to the consumer, a bad decision even if I can see why it wasn't as a localization one...a poor one though.

My point is...facts matter with budgets, not opinions.
So unless someone can shove numbers in the faces of those who matter hope is slim for an unrated version on steam anytime soon.


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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:01 pm

what knightnightmare said is true

knightnightmare wrote:the community will think: Well NISA has cheaply ported these games to Steam rather than doing a complete version like IFI is doing with Monpiece. Now that may not be fair, but that's how it's gonna be.


Btw the second game also tanked horribly so far, despite them including DLC never released outside of Japan.

Censored Gaming wrote:https://www.change.org/p/nis-america-release-criminal-girls-2-party-favors-uncensored-on-steam

will you guys give it some sort of coverage about this explaining that while this is not a sure way to get it uncensored it MIGHT give support to Prinny Supervisor in advocating an unrated and uncut release on the platform?
Might be helpful to spread the word.

EDIT: I was wrong about spending more money in order to rate the game as evidenced by Prinny Supervisor's post
Last edited by RandomR on Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby razisgosu » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:29 pm

I realize its highly unlikely but consider it signed.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Wdog-999 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:34 pm

Censored Gaming wrote:https://www.change.org/p/nis-america-release-criminal-girls-2-party-favors-uncensored-on-steam


Signed. I'm aware that it might do nothing, but it's a matter of putting in a signature, not giving up my first-born. :P

Also, quick question: would it be possible for you to release a censored/rated and uncensored/unrated version of the game on Steam at once, or are there rules against that on either the Steam level or the NISA level?
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:39 pm

RandomR, just to slightly correct you, ESRB ratings are not done per platform in every case. For example, during the submission process we can put as many platforms as we wish down, and as long as the content is the same on every platform, the rating will apply to all platforms. This is why you shouldn't put too much stock into seeing that a game has the PC platform listed, expecting a PC version to be in development or ready to be published. In the majority of cases, we put the PC platform down just as a safety net so that if we ever decided to port it in the future, we would not have to get it re-rated by the ESRB, as it would already technically be rated for PC. The whole process is a little bit more complicated than that, and there are caveats, but it is not the case that we have to pay for each individual platform.

Censored Gaming wrote:https://www.change.org/p/nis-america-release-criminal-girls-2-party-favors-uncensored-on-steam


Neat! I would however make it clear that this is in no way "official" or endorsed by NISA.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:42 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:RandomR, just to slightly correct you, ESRB ratings are not done per platform in every case. For example, during the submission process we can put as many platforms as we wish down, and as long as the content is the same on every platform, the rating will apply to all platforms. This is why you shouldn't put too much stock into seeing that a game has the PC platform listed, expecting a PC version to be in development or ready to be published. In the majority of cases, we put the PC platform down just as a safety net so that if we ever decided to port it in the future, we would not have to get it re-rated by the ESRB, as it would already technically be rated for PC. The whole process is a little bit more complicated than that, and there are caveats, but it is not the case that we have to pay for each individual platform.

Thanks for the correction regarding the number of platforms I REALLY appreciate the information, I'll be correcting/editing my posts, there's already misinformation about this mess it's not my intention to spread more.


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