Improvements For D5

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LazamairAMD
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby LazamairAMD » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:44 pm

ZekeFreek wrote:
LazamairAMD wrote:
ZekeFreek wrote:
LazamairAMD wrote:Just like Disgaea 1 introduced us to the concept of an Item World, and Disgaea 3 gave us the Class World, why not a Skill World? The goal is not to trivialize the skill store, you'll still need to visit there to obtain the skill (which may have to be proportionally higher given this mechanic), but why not use Skill World to give the +1 all the way to +9, or increase the spell critical, hit, or its overall power?


That's kind of what the Class/Chara World does already, more or less.

I think an individual world for skills is just over-complicating things. Plus, it gives Mana less uses, unless you want their to be like a "mana cost" to enter the "Skill World", but I just see that as redundant and again, over-complicated.


Fair enough...


Hey, man. Not trying to shoot down your ideas without merit here. I'm just savvy to game design that way.


And I respect that. Taking a step back and looking what I suggested, it would make mana relatively redundant, especially with Class World the way it is currently. Perhaps I was looking at Skills as another means to grind, considering that Class World can TRANSFER skills to other characters, and unlock unique Evilities.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby ZekeFreek » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:35 pm

LazamairAMD wrote:
ZekeFreek wrote:
LazamairAMD wrote:
ZekeFreek wrote:
LazamairAMD wrote:Just like Disgaea 1 introduced us to the concept of an Item World, and Disgaea 3 gave us the Class World, why not a Skill World? The goal is not to trivialize the skill store, you'll still need to visit there to obtain the skill (which may have to be proportionally higher given this mechanic), but why not use Skill World to give the +1 all the way to +9, or increase the spell critical, hit, or its overall power?


That's kind of what the Class/Chara World does already, more or less.

I think an individual world for skills is just over-complicating things. Plus, it gives Mana less uses, unless you want their to be like a "mana cost" to enter the "Skill World", but I just see that as redundant and again, over-complicated.


Fair enough...


Hey, man. Not trying to shoot down your ideas without merit here. I'm just savvy to game design that way.


And I respect that. Taking a step back and looking what I suggested, it would make mana relatively redundant, especially with Class World the way it is currently. Perhaps I was looking at Skills as another means to grind, considering that Class World can TRANSFER skills to other characters, and unlock unique Evilities.


I don't think it's possible for them to expand current systems without creating redundancy. New mechanics will have to be implented. I think D5 will be a big jump in mechanics in the same vein as the jump from D2 to D3.

They've done it before. Believe it or not, one of the most innovative things about the original Disgaea was the "Lift and Throw" mechanic.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby Zdood » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:56 pm

If using Mana for a hypothetical 'Skill World' would be redundant, then how about 'Skill Points' or some such? I can't say I'm too sure on how you'd gain these 'Skill Points', though; maybe by clearing stages under certain requirements? Like, completing a stage in x amount of moves? Or maybe you'd gain them as a reward for killing enemies with specials; the weaker the special you kill 'em with, the more points you gain, or something.

Some sort of 'Skill World' does seem like it could be an interesting idea if done right, so I'm just throwin' some stuff out there.

On another note, maybe higher tiers of a class can access more special moves? It'd give an incentive to reincarnate to higher tiers beyond just stats. Like, the first three tiers have three moves, tiers 4 and 5 would add a fourth, and tier 6 would add a fifth? This could even be incorporated to all types of units:

Unique/Main Char: They start with the three moves they've always had, but gain a fourth and maybe a fifth with enough reincarnations. Seriously, as unique/main chars, they could use a couple more cool moves.

Humanoid: Start with none, max out at three moves at tier 6. Humanoids tend to lack in the skill department somewhat, since they mostly just use weapon specials. D3 PSV gave humanoids some unique stuff of their own, right? So maybe it'll extend into D5 as well, with improvements.

Monsters: Pretty much what I stated above: start with three, end with five, maybe six, moves. Alternately, they could keep the four they've always had, maybe add a fifth later, and maybe add another Magichange move later. (On a similar note, it might be nice if Demon Fusion did more than give a monster's current attacks more range/AoE; maybe while Fused, monsters can access a unique Fusion move)

And there's some of my thoughts; I just think it may be interesting if Reincarnation did more than boost stats and raise aptitudes (and transfer skills more easily and faster than Chara World). I mean, since people are gonna reincarnate like crazy in the post-game anyway, why not reward them a little more with more insane stuff to do with their favorite characters? Hell, similarly, why not have each Rank 40 weapon have a unique move to go with it? It'd make getting Rank 40 weapons even more satisfying than it already is, I'd say, what with plowing your way through enemies with a special move specific to that weapon, flaunting your awesomeness in their faces as they get blown to smithereens. :twisted:
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Zdood wrote:If using Mana for a hypothetical 'Skill World' would be redundant, then how about 'Skill Points' or some such? I can't say I'm too sure on how you'd gain these 'Skill Points', though; maybe by clearing stages under certain requirements? Like, completing a stage in x amount of moves? Or maybe you'd gain them as a reward for killing enemies with specials; the weaker the special you kill 'em with, the more points you gain, or something.

Some sort of 'Skill World' does seem like it could be an interesting idea if done right, so I'm just throwin' some stuff out there.

On another note, maybe higher tiers of a class can access more special moves? It'd give an incentive to reincarnate to higher tiers beyond just stats. Like, the first three tiers have three moves, tiers 4 and 5 would add a fourth, and tier 6 would add a fifth? This could even be incorporated to all types of units:

Unique/Main Char: They start with the three moves they've always had, but gain a fourth and maybe a fifth with enough reincarnations. Seriously, as unique/main chars, they could use a couple more cool moves.

Humanoid: Start with none, max out at three moves at tier 6. Humanoids tend to lack in the skill department somewhat, since they mostly just use weapon specials. D3 PSV gave humanoids some unique stuff of their own, right? So maybe it'll extend into D5 as well, with improvements.

Monsters: Pretty much what I stated above: start with three, end with five, maybe six, moves. Alternately, they could keep the four they've always had, maybe add a fifth later, and maybe add another Magichange move later. (On a similar note, it might be nice if Demon Fusion did more than give a monster's current attacks more range/AoE; maybe while Fused, monsters can access a unique Fusion move)

And there's some of my thoughts; I just think it may be interesting if Reincarnation did more than boost stats and raise aptitudes (and transfer skills more easily and faster than Chara World). I mean, since people are gonna reincarnate like crazy in the post-game anyway, why not reward them a little more with more insane stuff to do with their favorite characters? Hell, similarly, why not have each Rank 40 weapon have a unique move to go with it? It'd make getting Rank 40 weapons even more satisfying than it already is, I'd say, what with plowing your way through enemies with a special move specific to that weapon, flaunting your awesomeness in their faces as they get blown to smithereens. :twisted:


Again, I'd say the current system works fine. There's not really anything you could add onto it. What they need here are new mechanics.

What they also need to do is continue to give me reasons to use monsters, because I'm still sort of 50/50 on them. They typically have powerful unique specials, and maybe learn some magic but that's about it. They can't learn weapon skills, lift/throw or anything. Magichange and Fusion were created to help give them more uses but I find myself not using those functions very often even now. (Part of the problem in D3 is that they need to be in the same club. This was eliminated in D4 but still).

Also, Staves. They need weapon skills. Maybe not the full 8 or 9 that other weapons get but atleast some. I get that they significantly increase INT and Magic Range but that's not enough for me. Simply put, I will rarely give a Spellcaster a Staff if they can use a Bow. In D1, with Flonne, instead of making her a spellcaster with a staff, I gave her a bow and taught her healing magic. Basically, she became long-range DPS (that causes status afflictions) and a healer.

In D4, they pulled a fast one on me because Emizel can't learn any weapon skills naturally, even if his forte says "Staff, Bow". I still plan on tinkering with him in the Chara World to get him to learn Bow Skills the hard way but that fact that without doing so, he is stuck with a staff is just weird to me.

I'd also like more weapon skills and to spread out further. We usually get about 8 or 9 per game, and characters stop getting new skills after around Lvl 600 or so. Thing is, the 8 or 9 we get are usually different sets (some repeat, but even then are different. "Triple Strike" for instance looks different in each game). So how about they bring them all back, giving us... roughly 35 or so skills per weapon and spread them out over maybe 4000 levels instead of just 500-600 or so.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby dood » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:28 am

I'd also like more weapon skills and to spread out further. We usually get about 8 or 9 per game, and characters stop getting new skills after around Lvl 600 or so. Thing is, the 8 or 9 we get are usually different sets (some repeat, but even then are different. "Triple Strike" for instance looks different in each game). So how about they bring them all back, giving us... roughly 35 or so skills per weapon and spread them out over maybe 4000 levels instead of just 500-600 or so.


I kind of like this idea but I don't think it is all that great. 4 different versions of the same move seems a bit redundant. Why not instead use the same moves we have now and also bring back moves we don't have anymore like the king of beasts move from D2 and changing the way it looks like they do with moves like slayers descent. That includes adding some new moves for D5 of course.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:55 am

dood wrote:
I'd also like more weapon skills and to spread out further. We usually get about 8 or 9 per game, and characters stop getting new skills after around Lvl 600 or so. Thing is, the 8 or 9 we get are usually different sets (some repeat, but even then are different. "Triple Strike" for instance looks different in each game). So how about they bring them all back, giving us... roughly 35 or so skills per weapon and spread them out over maybe 4000 levels instead of just 500-600 or so.


I kind of like this idea but I don't think it is all that great. 4 different versions of the same move seems a bit redundant. Why not instead use the same moves we have now and also bring back moves we don't have anymore like the king of beasts move from D2 and changing the way it looks like they do with moves like slayers descent. That includes adding some new moves for D5 of course.


I didn't mean that. I don't mean I want all 4 variations of Triple Strike or anything (although maybe a system where we can pick and choose which variations we want?).
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby LazamairAMD » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:29 am

ZekeFreek wrote:
dood wrote:
I'd also like more weapon skills and to spread out further. We usually get about 8 or 9 per game, and characters stop getting new skills after around Lvl 600 or so. Thing is, the 8 or 9 we get are usually different sets (some repeat, but even then are different. "Triple Strike" for instance looks different in each game). So how about they bring them all back, giving us... roughly 35 or so skills per weapon and spread them out over maybe 4000 levels instead of just 500-600 or so.


I kind of like this idea but I don't think it is all that great. 4 different versions of the same move seems a bit redundant. Why not instead use the same moves we have now and also bring back moves we don't have anymore like the king of beasts move from D2 and changing the way it looks like they do with moves like slayers descent. That includes adding some new moves for D5 of course.


I didn't mean that. I don't mean I want all 4 variations of Triple Strike or anything (although maybe a system where we can pick and choose which variations we want?).


Let the player choose the animation? That would be interesting, however with D4's entry into HD, NIS will have to go through the animations for D1-D3 which could be VERY time consuming.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:33 pm

LazamairAMD wrote:
ZekeFreek wrote:
dood wrote:
I'd also like more weapon skills and to spread out further. We usually get about 8 or 9 per game, and characters stop getting new skills after around Lvl 600 or so. Thing is, the 8 or 9 we get are usually different sets (some repeat, but even then are different. "Triple Strike" for instance looks different in each game). So how about they bring them all back, giving us... roughly 35 or so skills per weapon and spread them out over maybe 4000 levels instead of just 500-600 or so.


I kind of like this idea but I don't think it is all that great. 4 different versions of the same move seems a bit redundant. Why not instead use the same moves we have now and also bring back moves we don't have anymore like the king of beasts move from D2 and changing the way it looks like they do with moves like slayers descent. That includes adding some new moves for D5 of course.


I didn't mean that. I don't mean I want all 4 variations of Triple Strike or anything (although maybe a system where we can pick and choose which variations we want?).


Let the player choose the animation? That would be interesting, however with D4's entry into HD, NIS will have to go through the animations for D1-D3 which could be VERY time consuming.


Right. They would have to reconstruct many many animations which with HD spires is too time consuming and expensive.

Let me be clear, I don't expect them to do anything I say. I'm just putting ideas out there.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby MacWraith » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:34 am

New mechanics?
NIS need new scenatio, new art, new world on the ruins of old one to create new mechanics.
Ok, this is it:
World of evil creatures and humanoid demons.
"Old heroes gone, chaos under way and some new monsters(that mean: a truly new monsters) learn how to use Human weapons and they using it to escape from N-world and take contor under X-World full of human beings. So new heroes have no choice but to find old monsters along the way revealing the mystery of their disappearance and... you think i'll tell you everything? " :twisted:
+Need new monster - a lot of work :?
+Need new Devils/Heroes - a lot of work :?
+Training ground - where new monsters can learn a human skills upgrade it: increase range, add effects(fire/wind/ice/star). Actualy you just can add it to Item World :lol:
+Totaly New World/Homeroom - its should be hideout under the battlefield :ugeek:
+Totaly New Vote system - cus no class anymore

P.S. NIS, if you need totaly new story and absolutely free you can contact me by e-mail. :lol:
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby dood » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:27 am

Or how about a kungfu movie type of netherworld where the hero is trying to become the master of the dojo.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby MacWraith » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:39 am

dood wrote:Or how about a kungfu movie type of netherworld where the hero is trying to become the master of the dojo.

Good idea, but used many times :cry:
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby Earthjolly » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:11 pm

*Male and Female sprites for each job ( I want too see a female bouncer and a male theif)

*Make the defensive stat useful for godsakes. I want the game to be more tactical and less steam rolling 'omg one shot kill everything.' That way even healers could be useful post game.

*If what I said above can be fixed then you can add multiplayer battles.

*Be able to dupe for a hefty price like 100 million or something.

Maybe the main character could be a Arch Angel of high importance who was betrayed or blamed on something terrible he didn't do and is stripped from his powers and sent to the netherworld as a fallen angel, and he must work his way back to Celestia and solve the conspiracy.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby Zdood » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:10 pm

Earthjolly wrote:*Be able to dupe for a hefty price like 100 million or something.

...You do know that 100mil isn't all that much in the post-game, right? Maybe for 100bil or something in the trillions, but definitely not 100mil.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:10 pm

Earthjolly wrote:*Male and Female sprites for each job ( I want too see a female bouncer and a male theif)

*Make the defensive stat useful for godsakes. I want the game to be more tactical and less steam rolling 'omg one shot kill everything.' That way even healers could be useful post game.

*If what I said above can be fixed then you can add multiplayer battles.

*Be able to dupe for a hefty price like 100 million or something.

Maybe the main character could be a Arch Angel of high importance who was betrayed or blamed on something terrible he didn't do and is stripped from his powers and sent to the netherworld as a fallen angel, and he must work his way back to Celestia and solve the conspiracy.


No. They tried the whole "both genders" thing in Disgaea 3. It's too much work, especially with HD sprites involved and it largely redundant.

I agree about the defensive stat, but that would require changing the entire system. (The problem lies mainly in the damage formula and the way that it is calculated).

100mil is chump-change by the time your consistently duping items. To balance it, it would have to be so ridiculously expensive that it wouldn't be worth it anyway.
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Re: Improvements For D5

Postby The Sneaky Prinny » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:12 pm

The Item duping seems to come up a lot. I've found that duping items for their own sake is rarely time effective. Duping the innocents inside the item however is very helpful, so why not just cut out item duping and include a (relatively) easy way to dupe innocents instead? I never really used the innocent path in the item world, but if for every item general/king/god kill a subdued innocent got copied instead, that would be a real consideration. It would not be too OP'd early on, as an extra 20 attack from a gladiator would help, but not destroy the game balence, while later on it could be a godsend since you will be reliebly getting a 300 statistician every 10 minutes or so. It would still be up to the player to get their 3 maxed, rarity-matched trapz, but stacking them with the innocents would be less of a time-sucking chore.

On an unrelated note, Unique monster-types at least need 4 skills like the other monsters do, maybe a forth skill for all uniques.

Bringing back all the older classes would be nice too, even if it was a lot of work (I miss some of the cooler D1 monsters, like Manticores, Pumpkin guys, and Land Sharks! :cry: ) some of the very similar classes could simply be alternitive designs for the same class, similar to the gender swap with R2 someone else brought up. Examples include EDF soldiers and power suits, Majin and Androids, or Mothmen and Winged. (possibly even human-overlord Priere, hmm? :shock: )

Lastly, i'd like to see some interaction between your characters at the classroom/cam-pain equivilant. you can already talk to your characters, how 'bout letting them talk to eath other? think of the possibilities! mushrooms chatting up knights, professors questioning ghosts, dragons making wimpy characters wet themselves! It could easily be incorperated with the any base control character previously mentioned. This would create an enormous pool of diologue to create, but it's possible.

the def. problem could be fixed with an evility that re-orders def. calculation (Galactic Demons, perhaps?)
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