aquagon wrote: Reth wrote:
The last three posts
I never disputed the importance of Tyria's cosmosphere on the story - I thought we were talking about the romantic developments in this thread though?
There's also the fact that if Tyria looking at Aoto's actions to change her final fate in the past (even if that wasn't possible in the present) ended making her fall in love with him don't count as actual romantic developments (and in fact, her route can't be locked without doing it), I don't see how the developments in other Cosmospheres/Binary Fields, such as Shurelia's or Mir's, would count.
A fair point, and one I don't disagree with. In the case with all Shurelia, Mir and Tyria there was little time for development being such late entries into the story - the difference is how each route was written. I can't comment on Shurelia's much because I haven't personally played her end and only read up on it, and I don't want to give an uneducated arguement, so I'll compare Jacqli and Tyria.
Firstly, there's the obvious point - Jacqli was introduced at the end of phase 2, out of 5 phases in Ar Tonelico 2 giving her significantly more time to develop a relationship with Croix and contribute to the story in multiple ways. Tyria is introduced at the start of phase 4, out of... 4 phases. Therein lies the obvious fact that though yes, Tyria is an essential part of the plot as an Origin - there was literally -no- development of any relationship between her and Aoto in the game itself apart from the scene you get at the end of the game if you chose her route. It all happens in the cosmosphere, and even that was arguably unfounded.
Now, with the obvious out of the way lets compare the cosmospheres -
Jacqli's cosmosphere started by showing a story to Croix and making him assume a role and identity that was not his own. So did Tyria - so check - they're the same so far. Tyria's lasted 3 levels, ending with the "true" conclusion of the story, where Aoto was still playing the role that Tyria put him in - and that's the end. Tyria and Aoto now love eachother.
Jacqli's cosmosphere however breaks due to her feelings getting too invovled, and the ficiton ends as Croix begins diving into her the same as he would with the other girls, learns her true name, learns about her self destructive nature, stops her from trying to destroy herself and so on... I don't need to go into detail on what happened but the point is there, a genuine dive into her subconcious.
Now, that's the cosmospheres done - now lets compare what happened after the cosmosphere was complete.
Obviously due to the limitations the game has in place with the multiple romance options, the story itself has no dialogue changes until the very end, so we can only compare the private talk topics and the ending scenes itself which is personalized for each girl. So lets have a look at those endings. Tyria and Aoto are now in love, apparently, after a single conversation they had after finishing a dive, there's no need for further discussion about it, they just are - ACCEPT IT ALRIGHT?
Now, Jacqli's end - As I said in my previous post, this is a half-half case between the "cheating" factor of the cosmospheres, but also half genuine due to the different way it is treated and approached. Croix feelings are set, as he has full memories of what happened in the cosmosphere and has fallen for her because of it. As they clearly say throughout the game though, Jacqli does not have full clear memories of what happened in the cosmospheres, but her feelings are slightly influenced, hence her tentative reaction to Croix's confession. He serenades her, with one of the most romantic events I've seen in a JRPG, and there a relationship begins. To quote Jacqil "I cannot lie, I am very attracted to you." - there was none of this fake "I love you too" talk - it was a relationship beginning.
In conclusion, and getting back on topic, yes the cosmosphere is sort of a cheat, but in most cases the Cosmosphere works hand-in-hand with the real world and they can compliment eachother, giving their relationship an extra dimension.
The funny thing about this whole arguement is that I actually chose the Tyria route in Qoga, and she was my favourite out of three very uninspired choices (Not including Cocona of course - I intentionally avoided her ending because It was a lie T_T)
Anyway, yeah I'm bias - but who isn't?