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Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:25 am
by vampko
After playing through so much of the AT universe, I've thought about something. Cosmospheres sure are fun and interesting to go through, but are they really providing true relationships?

Cosmospheres are essentially a person actually exploring another person's mind. So, aren't they sort of cheating? Is the relationship they build actually genuine? Or is it built off lies? I'm sure I sound really crazy right now. But, think about it. People in real life, have to work for years to understand what's going on in each other's heads. But, they don't get to read the other person's mind, or get a free glimpse into their soul, they have to observe how they react to situations/events. Learn to feel what the other person is feeling. With a cosmosphere, they just basically get to see more about a person, MUCH more, without much effort. Even though, technically the reyvateil has to accept you into the cosmosphere in the first place, could they have even made it that far without seeing what was in the cosmosphere?

I understand it's merely a game mechanic to provide dating sim elements, but I really do feel like there's something very inherently wrong with the whole cosmosphere system. I also am sure it has deeply to do with the overall plot of the series (still playing through Qoga), but I still can't help but question about these things.

Of course, people can use this to lay out their own questions/comments about cosmospheres as well. Just make sure to keep anything actually indicative of the storyline in spoiler tags please

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:51 am
by aquagon
No, it isn't cheating. When Diving on a Cosmosphere, the two people involved are causing an H-Wave interference, which is the same basis for interpersonal relationships in the real world. Diving only accelerates this process because both of their mental waves are interacting directly with other, without any external factors that could hinder or impede the transmission of feelings.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:58 am
by vampko
aquagon wrote:No, it isn't cheating. When Diving on a Cosmosphere, the two people involved are causing an H-Wave interference, which is the same basis for interpersonal relationships in the real world. Diving only accelerates this process because both of their mental waves are interacting directly with other, without any external factors that could hinder or impede the transmission of feelings.

The question is, without actually diving, could they still gain the same relationship?

EDIT
If external factors could hinder the relationship, wouldn't that mean that the relationship wasn't exactly that strong?

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:11 am
by zatrox
Ahem.
vampko wrote:Without actually diving, could they still gain the same relationship?

If external factors could hinder the relationship, wouldn't that mean that the relationship wasn't exactly that strong?

You seem to forget that relationships aren't born like that. Diving, basically, creates a feeling of companionship and trust between the Reyvateil and the guy. Said feeling of companionship evolves into love after certain actions, which evolves into a relationship as the game progresses.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:12 am
by aquagon
They could still gain that same relationship, with the difference that it would be harder and take more time to develop. Like I said, Diving simply speeds up the process.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:15 am
by Rednal
Also... you have to develop your relationship in the real world before the girl will open herself to you. If she isn't close enough to you, she won't let you in, and if she doesn't trust you enough (i.e. DP), you can't advance. Basically, there's nothing you can see in the Cosmosphere that you're not ultimately being allowed to see. It's not just a foundation for the relationship, it's also a result.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:31 am
by vampko
zatrox wrote:Ahem.
vampko wrote:Without actually diving, could they still gain the same relationship?

If external factors could hinder the relationship, wouldn't that mean that the relationship wasn't exactly that strong?

You seem to forget that relationships aren't born like that. Diving, basically, creates a feeling of companionship and trust between the Reyvateil and the guy. Said feeling of companionship evolves into love after certain actions, which evolves into a relationship as the game progresses.

Not on Qoga xD

aquagon wrote:They could still gain that same relationship, with the difference that it would be harder and take more time to develop. Like I said, Diving simply speeds up the process.


I know they 'could', but would they still?

Rednal wrote:Also... you have to develop your relationship in the real world before the girl will open herself to you. If she isn't close enough to you, she won't let you in, and if she doesn't trust you enough (i.e. DP), you can't advance. Basically, there's nothing you can see in the Cosmosphere that you're not ultimately being allowed to see. It's not just a foundation for the relationship, it's also a result.

The only time that arguments stands really firm, is before the first dive (which, in AT's is pretty always one of necessity almost). After that, any way the relationship progresses is being perverted by the ability to do something which should not be available. Seeing into the other person's mind.

I don't think it's really as simple as you all are saying. One thing I will say, is that it also has the potential to kill off relationships that otherwise might have matured. I'm sure there are people who would run after going through the stuff that the protags go through in cosmospheres. But, that just meant that the person wasn't mature enough yet, and they might have been able to get through it if they had taken the relationship slower. Kind of like, you're not ready for that stuff, until you're at level 9 of a cosmosphere. But, you can't get past level 3 because of that. yet, if there wasn't a cosmosphere to begin with, the relationship would slowly mature into something which was stronger than someone who made it past level 9 with the Reyvateil.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:21 pm
by LAMV
They do this because you only have 50 hours to save the world, might as well put relationship developments on hyperdrive, right?

... What? Someone had to make a stupid joke.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:41 pm
by leinaud
vampko wrote:I don't think it's really as simple as you all are saying. One thing I will say, is that it also has the potential to kill off relationships that otherwise might have matured. I'm sure there are people who would run after going through the stuff that the protags go through in cosmospheres. But, that just meant that the person wasn't mature enough yet, and they might have been able to get through it if they had taken the relationship slower. Kind of like, you're not ready for that stuff, until you're at level 9 of a cosmosphere. But, you can't get past level 3 because of that. yet, if there wasn't a cosmosphere to begin with, the relationship would slowly mature into something which was stronger than someone who made it past level 9 with the Reyvateil.



Just to put my .02 in. If you play the game and dive into a cosmosphere as they open up, it seems a little more fast-paced than it should, especially in AT1 where you could dive WAY before some of the plot elements opened up in the story. In AT2 it is much better but still you can advance in a cosmosphere a bit faster than you should. (I haven't started ATQ yet) I'm assuming this is so players can get better song magic a little sooner if they play their cards right. IMO, if you take a little more time and play out the cosmospheres later than normal, they compound the RL portion of the relationship with that particular Reyvateil as the story and game progresses. Just my .02 though :D

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:52 pm
by CelticRedemption
leinaud wrote:
vampko wrote:I don't think it's really as simple as you all are saying. One thing I will say, is that it also has the potential to kill off relationships that otherwise might have matured. I'm sure there are people who would run after going through the stuff that the protags go through in cosmospheres. But, that just meant that the person wasn't mature enough yet, and they might have been able to get through it if they had taken the relationship slower. Kind of like, you're not ready for that stuff, until you're at level 9 of a cosmosphere. But, you can't get past level 3 because of that. yet, if there wasn't a cosmosphere to begin with, the relationship would slowly mature into something which was stronger than someone who made it past level 9 with the Reyvateil.



Just to put my .02 in. If you play the game and dive into a cosmosphere as they open up, it seems a little more fast-paced than it should, especially in AT1 where you could dive WAY before some of the plot elements opened up in the story. In AT2 it is much better but still you can advance in a cosmosphere a bit faster than you should. (I haven't started ATQ yet) I'm assuming this is so players can get better song magic a little sooner if they play their cards right. IMO, if you take a little more time and play out the cosmospheres later than normal, they compound the RL portion of the relationship with that particular Reyvateil as the story and game progresses. Just my .02 though :D


They make pretty sure you can't progress through some vital parts of the game unless you've done certain things or obtained certain items.
however
Spoiler:
I managed to dive deep enough into Finnel to get to the court part mentioning a contract well before the verbal contract was even MADE in the game

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:33 pm
by vampko
Hmmm....after playing and stuff, I've begun to think that it would be better if the cosmospheres were completely unvoiced...

I dunno what it is, but when I played through on the dub for Saki's first CS it was completely unvoiced, and I really liked that. It seems that the Cosmospheres could be more enjoyable that way.

Am I strange in thinking this?

Does anyone agree?

I still DEFINITELY want the Story voiced and everything, but I just kinda think that the CS could remain unvoiced.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:02 pm
by Rednal
Disagree. I thought that voicework added a lot to some of the more important or humorous parts of the Cosmospheres.

Spoiler:
Finnel in Level 5, Tyria when she was all "Idle hands do the Devil's work." For example.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:20 pm
by CelticRedemption
Completely disagree, I'd rather have the ENTIRE cosmosphere voiced.
That said.. I got through Tyria's binary field yesterday... And the voices being off on the text kinda ruins the moment, you know :\ and you have to like.. hear it at least 3 times

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:14 pm
by Balance
I don't think it's cheating or anything, because in the game it says how diving is hard and even in one of the games how even at some point even if a Revayteil and a guy are REALLY close he isn't even able to pass thru passed certain point in their Cosmosphere. I think it just LOOKS like cheating and cheap in the games because the main character and the game/story is a Harem so it's simply easier for them. But for other people I can imagine it being harder.

Re: Cosmospheres

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:03 pm
by AsukaNeumaki
Based on Finnel's reactions to Aoto diving in her very early on in the game. Diving to reyvateils is like sex. Like Finnel yelling about Aoto taking her diving virginity gives me the impression that they really have to have a special bond to even let a human in their head. So pretty they need to be close to even be able to dive or the reyvateil needs to trust the human very much. But based on this description it makes some of the reyvateils out to be whores by letting human dive into them after they met 5 minutes ago coughfinnelcough