Thanks a bunch NISA

in Europe, for PSVita
User avatar
Ringwraith
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 10399
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:33 am

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Ringwraith » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:07 pm

nroejb wrote:Well 'I don't know About FES, bought but never played it. I spend far the most of my Persona 3 Time on PSP. After the female main character became more and more the true main char in my mind, my interest in FES kept on shrinking (if the player char is mute, I wan't to at least se some emotions reflect in It's/his/her portraits).
Anyway on P3 PSP Fuuka was quite bad, particularly her in Batlle/Dark Hour babbling.
Luckily she was the only downside of an otherwise grandious PSP game.

Well, she is only slightly better in The Answer part of FES, seeing as The Journey, the original part, was recorded first and would have been carried through to the PSP version. At least she is not actually that horrible to listen to, she speaks like a normal human being, just lacking much in the way of inflection, about anything.
Image
<SaturnineTenshi> and we can play with solice because he likes it
<Solice> i hear it's better than playing with myself

<Solice> celtic had a hard time getting his ball out?
<Kana> oh man, you have no idea

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:17 pm

ArmedDragoon wrote:
BlinkWinkel wrote:
Cycloid wrote:Well this sucks.

Thanks (for nothing) I guess, NISA.


Yeah, no point in playing this game if it's not dual audio (might as well just play the good old PS2 undub) but NISA isn't responsible for the terrible localization, Atlus is.


Yep, better skip the hours of exclusive content for those Japanese voices that don't affect anything.

Atlus is forever my hero for tuning out this nonsense.

I rethought the topic and I decided that you are wrong.
There is a very major thing the japanese voices affect.

Do you remember the "are video games art" discussion startet by the late movie critic Roger Ebert, that was quite the topic on the internet for a while?
I don't know the answer due to technical details of the dictionary definition of art.
However, considering this technical definition, one thing is obvious.
The creation process of the video game characters is art and in the case of games that have vocal synchronisation and for which the voice is chosen by the original character designer and thus an integeral part of the whole creation, the voice can not be changed without disturbing the object as a whole.

At least that is the case in a game like this, were actual creative thoughts, more than "well the females need huge tits and scanty clothing", were put into character design.
The character is supposed to invoke a distinct impression and distinct feelings. To achieve this besides hair cut/colour, face, figure, clothing and bearing (in some cases also the age and sex), the voice and the way to speak are an important part of the whole creation.

As long as the localisation of the original voice and way to speak isn't directly handled by the original character creator, there is always a change, often a loss to the meaning and symbolism of the character.
I can completely understand gamers that decide, that for them this is not acceptable.
In fact you will find the same for Movie lovers.
There is a reason why french movies always have the original synchronisation with subtitles, and why every movie friend with some proud choses these insted of the vocally translated version.


p.s.
I have to admit that I always watch the translated dubb of the Count of Monte Christo instead of listening to Depardieus seemingly brilliant voicework, but I am a barbarian.

User avatar
Rednal
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 16942
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:09 am
Location: Cuddling with Coco

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Rednal » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:24 pm

And there's absolutely no possible way that a modified version of the character voices, which is a change from the Japanese, could create characters that are equally interesting and worthwhile. The absolute pure purity of the original Japanese is art perfected in its purest pure form, and all changes, no matter what, are automatically worse as a result! Even if you can't understand the original version and pick up the important bits, it's a heinous crime to disturb the purity of the original pure game! Nevermind that if you really wanted the original, you could just import a copy, because Sony's cool like that... nope, localized products are always bad, and there are no gains of any kind to go with the losses from the pure Japanese stuff. Of course, there's also the rest of the dialogue, including the text, that has to get translated, which ALSO detracts from the pure purity of the games.

Localization destroys the purity of the original and should never happen at all! Let's all stick with Originally English Games or go learn Japanese, because anything else is insulting to the creators!

Image
PSN: LordRednal / Twitter: @Rednal29 ] Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/rednal29
Image

User avatar
ArmedDragoon
Netherworld Count
Netherworld Count
Posts: 1096
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:29 pm
Location: Seven Sages Headquarters

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby ArmedDragoon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:26 pm

nroejb wrote:
ArmedDragoon wrote:
BlinkWinkel wrote:
Cycloid wrote:Well this sucks.

Thanks (for nothing) I guess, NISA.


Yeah, no point in playing this game if it's not dual audio (might as well just play the good old PS2 undub) but NISA isn't responsible for the terrible localization, Atlus is.


Yep, better skip the hours of exclusive content for those Japanese voices that don't affect anything.

Atlus is forever my hero for tuning out this nonsense.

I rethought the topic and I decided that you are wrong.
There is a very major thing the japanese voices affect.

Do you remember the "are video games art" discussion startet by the late movie critic Roger Ebert, that was quite the topic on the internet for a while?
I don't know the answer due to technical details of the dictionary definition of art.
However, considering this technical definition, one thing is obvious.
The creation process of the video game characters is art and in the case of games that have vocal synchronisation and for which the voice is chosen by the original character designer and thus an integeral part of the whole creation, the voice can not be changed without disturbing the object as a whole.

At least that is the case in a game like this, were actual creative thoughts, more than "well the females need huge tits and scanty clothing", were put into character design.
The character is supposed to invoke a distinct impression and distinct feelings. To achieve this besides hair cut/colour, face, figure, clothing and bearing (in some cases also the age and sex), the voice and the way to speak are an important part of the whole creation.

As long as the localisation of the original voice and way to speak isn't directly handled by the original character creator, there is always a change, often a loss to the meaning and symbolism of the character.
I can completely understand gamers that decide, that for them this is not acceptable.
In fact you will find the same for Movie lovers.
There is a reason why french movies always have the original synchronisation with subtitles, and why every movie friend with some proud choses these insted of the vocally translated version.


p.s.
I have to admit that I always watch the translated dubb of the Count of Monte Christo instead of listening to Depardieus seemingly brilliant voicework, but I am a barbarian.


I'm glad that it took you about two months to examine my completely subjective view on Japanese voice tracks and respond with an argument that I've heard a million times before.
Image
Neogaf wrote:In my opinion the main creative heads behind such games are undoubtedly pedophiles. There's no doubt in my mind. Having them lose money doesn't bother me at all.

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:09 pm

Rednal wrote:And there's absolutely no possible way that a modified version of the character voices, which is a change from the Japanese, could create characters that are equally interesting and worthwhile. The absolute pure purity of the original Japanese is art perfected in its purest pure form, and all changes, no matter what, are automatically worse as a result! Even if you can't understand the original version and pick up the important bits, it's a heinous crime to disturb the purity of the original pure game! Nevermind that if you really wanted the original, you could just import a copy, because Sony's cool like that... nope, localized products are always bad, and there are no gains of any kind to go with the losses from the pure Japanese stuff. Of course, there's also the rest of the dialogue, including the text, that has to get translated, which ALSO detracts from the pure purity of the games.

Localization destroys the purity of the original and should never happen at all! Let's all stick with Originally English Games or go learn Japanese, because anything else is insulting to the creators!

Well I'm impressed about this high amount of emotion you can put into the topic, but due to it, sadly you completely missed the point.
There are no problems with subtitles, though preferable they should be beneath the Game/movie not put above the bottom part.
Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word art. That the japanese original is a type of art doesn't make it perfect, not even good, since art can just be as shitty as any other craft.
Purity also hasn't anything to do with it. If you change it, it's no longer the same, but something new, which of course can be better, but it's no longer the same and thus it is no longer possible to know what the creator wanted to tell his audiance.
If the the people responsible for the localisation are talented and put their own thought into every aspect of their recreation, the new version can of course be better than the original, but that doesn't change that the original still is lost. And it still is understandable if some people do mind this.

ArmedDragoon wrote:I'm glad that it took you about two months to examine my completely subjective view on Japanese voice tracks and respond with an argument that I've heard a million times before.

That cannot be avoided, I just came up with that a few days ago on my own, I thus couldn't know how many other people already used this thought in their arguments. Sadly my knowledge about that debate is rather limited since I never cared that much.
Anyway, If you think that two month are a high amount of time, I must say that I envy your youth (in a way).
However what you say is wrong, you didn't just make an subjective statement, you criticised the subjective opinion of somone else with your own subjective opinion.
That was just bad form. I tried to find an objective reply to that argument without disregarding other people's oppinion or insulting them by valuing my own feelings higher then theirs. In the end there is no reson to become confused, overly emotional or insulting over the fact that others people can have opinions that differ from our own, without automatically better or worse.
When it comes to tastes, two contradicting opinions can be equally true.
Last edited by nroejb on Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ArmedDragoon
Netherworld Count
Netherworld Count
Posts: 1096
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:29 pm
Location: Seven Sages Headquarters

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby ArmedDragoon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:17 pm

nroejb wrote:
ArmedDragoon wrote:I'm glad that it took you about two months to examine my completely subjective view on Japanese voice tracks and respond with an argument that I've heard a million times before.

That cannot be avoided, I just came up with that a few days ago on my own, I thus couldn't know how many other people already used this thought in their arguments. Sadly my knowledge about that debate is rather limited since I never cared that much.
Anyway, If you think that two month are a high amount of time, I must say that I envy your youth (in a way).
However what you say is wrong, you didn't just make an subjective statement, you criticised the subjective opinion of somone else with your own subjective opinion.
That was just bad form. I tried to find an objective reply to that argument without disregarding other people's oppinion or insulting them by valuing my own feelings higher then theirs.


What you're missing is the fact that I was replying to Blink, whose opinions I have absolutely no need to regard as anything more than complete rubbish, I've tried that route in the past and I'm tired of dealing with him.
Image
Neogaf wrote:In my opinion the main creative heads behind such games are undoubtedly pedophiles. There's no doubt in my mind. Having them lose money doesn't bother me at all.

User avatar
Rednal
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 16942
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:09 am
Location: Cuddling with Coco

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Rednal » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:51 pm

If you didn't notice that I was joking, then you totally missed the point. :lol:
PSN: LordRednal / Twitter: @Rednal29 ] Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/rednal29
Image

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:52 pm

ArmedDragoon wrote:
nroejb wrote:
ArmedDragoon wrote:I'm glad that it took you about two months to examine my completely subjective view on Japanese voice tracks and respond with an argument that I've heard a million times before.

That cannot be avoided, I just came up with that a few days ago on my own, I thus couldn't know how many other people already used this thought in their arguments. Sadly my knowledge about that debate is rather limited since I never cared that much.
Anyway, If you think that two month are a high amount of time, I must say that I envy your youth (in a way).
However what you say is wrong, you didn't just make an subjective statement, you criticised the subjective opinion of somone else with your own subjective opinion.
That was just bad form. I tried to find an objective reply to that argument without disregarding other people's oppinion or insulting them by valuing my own feelings higher then theirs.


What you're missing is the fact that I was replying to Blink, whose opinions I have absolutely no need to regard as anything more than complete rubbish, I've tried that route in the past and I'm tired of dealing with him.

I don't doubt your words, however to me, who only visited this topic here, without knowing any previous history between you and other users, that was not possible to be known.
What I could see was that you completely disregarded the opinion of two other people, based on the claim that "not anything was effected".
it is true that both posts are pointlessly insulting, one towards NIS, one towards Atlus, but for me who didn't know the previous history, the answer as well seemed unnecessarily disrespectful, not about their tone, but their preferences, which was one of the main reasons for my reply.
(The other reason being, that I wanted to phrase the "pro original subb" in a neutral, fact based way, to show what kind of reasons for this kind of preferances exist, since the original posters failed to do so.)
Anyway if that's the case then I only want to say, that next time you have to answer to your enemy, you probably should think about the impression on, and the feelings of these that don't know your history with the other users.

Edit:
Rednal wrote:If you didn't notice that I was joking, then you totally missed the point. :lol:

It seems I did, I will use the "I am not a native speaker" card to buy myself out of the shame.
Also the fact that others already were so emotional and insulting about this topic made the post seem more believeable.

Edit 2:
it seems I made one post to much, it's not like I still had anything meaningful to say.
So I deleted my last post.
Last edited by nroejb on Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
ArmedDragoon
Netherworld Count
Netherworld Count
Posts: 1096
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:29 pm
Location: Seven Sages Headquarters

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby ArmedDragoon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:58 pm

I do not understand Japanese. To me, absolutely nothing is lost when the Japanese voices aren't there because I don't know what they mean in the first place. Reading subtitles with the original voices does not "preserve" anything, as the voices themselves sound just as archtypal as their English counterparts.

If I get pissy about this topic, it's always because people are constantly shitting on Atlus, one of my favorite companies, over it.
Image
Neogaf wrote:In my opinion the main creative heads behind such games are undoubtedly pedophiles. There's no doubt in my mind. Having them lose money doesn't bother me at all.

User avatar
Emerald Emblem
Netherworld Marquis
Netherworld Marquis
Posts: 2081
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:24 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Emerald Emblem » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:57 am

Well this escalated a lot.

Amazingly I actually managed to beat the game, didn't get the bonus months mind, didn't max Marie's social link before I beat the final boss. I had fun so I'll definitely look into Persona 5.

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:38 am

If you didn`t already, you should also take a look at persona 3.
It's only a few month older. so the graphics shouldn't be to out of date.
There is a very good PSP adaption that somehow probably will also be able to be bought and used for the vita.

User avatar
Ringwraith
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 10399
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:33 am

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:30 pm

nroejb wrote:If you didn`t already, you should also take a look at persona 3.
It's only a few month older. so the graphics shouldn't be to out of date.
There is a very good PSP adaption that somehow probably will also be able to be bought and used for the vita.

It's pacing is much worse and it's much more grindy due to the very bland randomly generated dungeon.
So 4 is a far better game than 3.
Image
<SaturnineTenshi> and we can play with solice because he likes it
<Solice> i hear it's better than playing with myself

<Solice> celtic had a hard time getting his ball out?
<Kana> oh man, you have no idea

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:50 pm

Ringwraith wrote:
nroejb wrote:If you didn`t already, you should also take a look at persona 3.
It's only a few month older. so the graphics shouldn't be to out of date.
There is a very good PSP adaption that somehow probably will also be able to be bought and used for the vita.

It's pacing is much worse and it's much more grindy due to the very bland randomly generated dungeon.
So 4 is a far better game than 3.

Well I am surprised to find someone who doesn't like grinding or random Dungeons in a NIS forum.
But you are right, for people who hate grinding Persona 4 might be the better choise, for all others, the games are about equal, since I don't like mascot characters and Persona 4 (that colourfull litlle teddy-ball Demon) has one less then Persona 3 (the dog and the Bimbot), I agree to your choise, but thats just personal preference as well.

User avatar
Ringwraith
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 10399
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:33 am

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:57 pm

nroejb wrote:
Ringwraith wrote:
nroejb wrote:If you didn`t already, you should also take a look at persona 3.
It's only a few month older. so the graphics shouldn't be to out of date.
There is a very good PSP adaption that somehow probably will also be able to be bought and used for the vita.

It's pacing is much worse and it's much more grindy due to the very bland randomly generated dungeon.
So 4 is a far better game than 3.

Well I am surprised to find someone who doesn't like grinding or random Dungeons in a NIS forum.
But you are right, for people who hate grinding Persona 4 might be the better choise, for all others, the games are about equal, since I don't like mascot characters and Persona 4 (that colourfull litlle teddy-ball Demon) has one less then Persona 3 (the dog and the Bimbot), I agree to your choise, but thats just personal preference as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Persona 3. I even enjoyed The Answer, which is 95% plotless dungeon crawling. But 4 is the by far the better game, as it just fits together as a whole better.
Also, even their supposed 'mascot' characters are characters. Yes, even the dog.
Image
<SaturnineTenshi> and we can play with solice because he likes it
<Solice> i hear it's better than playing with myself

<Solice> celtic had a hard time getting his ball out?
<Kana> oh man, you have no idea

nroejb
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Thanks a bunch NISA

Postby nroejb » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Ringwraith wrote:
nroejb wrote:
Ringwraith wrote:
nroejb wrote:If you didn`t already, you should also take a look at persona 3.
It's only a few month older. so the graphics shouldn't be to out of date.
There is a very good PSP adaption that somehow probably will also be able to be bought and used for the vita.

It's pacing is much worse and it's much more grindy due to the very bland randomly generated dungeon.
So 4 is a far better game than 3.

Well I am surprised to find someone who doesn't like grinding or random Dungeons in a NIS forum.
But you are right, for people who hate grinding Persona 4 might be the better choise, for all others, the games are about equal, since I don't like mascot characters and Persona 4 (that colourfull litlle teddy-ball Demon) has one less then Persona 3 (the dog and the Bimbot), I agree to your choise, but thats just personal preference as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Persona 3. I even enjoyed The Answer, which is 95% plotless dungeon crawling. But 4 is the by far the better game, as it just fits together as a whole better.
Also, even their supposed 'mascot' characters are characters. Yes, even the dog.

I know, and he becomes even more of a character in the PSP version with the female main character.
But fleshed out as he may be, he still is a mascot, and I just don't like them (this one can summon demons, he should have used that ability to protect himself from having that laughable dress forced upon him).


Return to “Persona 4 Golden”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest