*SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

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Rating out of 5 on this Chapter:

5 out of 5 - Excellent
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67%
4 out of 5 - Good
6
33%
3 out of 5 - Alright
0
No votes
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1 out of 5 - Terrible
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Total votes: 18

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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:52 pm

Ah, I'm sorry, let me clarify - I was speaking/referring to both you and vampko there.

You're right, he was in a predicament, and both options were hard ones. I absolutely agree with this, and I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that, of his available options (and I think you see this too), he chose the one best for him, and certainly the one that was most in character.

Oh, I'm not denying Kyoko's view - and perhaps I've been harsh on her in my defense of Makoto, but I actually think, even if her giving him the silent treatment after the fact had negative effects, from a writing perspective it was a fantastic idea. It shows players Kyoko's human, and that is something we really needed to see. However, for the player to take it out on Makoto that Kyoko's feelings got her (even if, from her perspective, it was justified at the time) is just missing the point and not giving Makoto nearly enough credit.

However, I don't think what he was hypocritical (and Kyoko herself seems to approve of his actions later on). The mistake he made, at worst, was how he explained he couldn't tell her - and, if you look at his perspective, that's understandable too. The poor kid was shell shocked. What he did was very much in character - telling Kyoko would have been betraying Sakura. Had he had the time to just talk to people, Kyoko might be hurt for a few hours, but then he could have talked to Sakura, gone back to Kyoko, and she would have reached the same conclusion she reached after she got over hearing it from Monokuma instead of him in the first place: That he did the right thing.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:40 pm

Seventh wrote:Ah, I'm sorry, let me clarify - I was speaking/referring to both you and vampko there.

You're right, he was in a predicament, and both options were hard ones. I absolutely agree with this, and I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that, of his available options (and I think you see this too), he chose the one best for him, and certainly the one that was most in character.

Oh, I'm not denying Kyoko's view - and perhaps I've been harsh on her in my defense of Makoto, but I actually think, even if her giving him the silent treatment after the fact had negative effects, from a writing perspective it was a fantastic idea. It shows players Kyoko's human, and that is something we really needed to see. However, for the player to take it out on Makoto that Kyoko's feelings got her (even if, from her perspective, it was justified at the time) is just missing the point and not giving Makoto nearly enough credit.

However, I don't think what he was hypocritical (and Kyoko herself seems to approve of his actions later on). The mistake he made, at worst, was how he explained he couldn't tell her - and, if you look at his perspective, that's understandable too. The poor kid was shell shocked. What he did was very much in character - telling Kyoko would have been betraying Sakura. Had he had the time to just talk to people, Kyoko might be hurt for a few hours, but then he could have talked to Sakura, gone back to Kyoko, and she would have reached the same conclusion she reached after she got over hearing it from Monokuma instead of him in the first place: That he did the right thing.


Oh okay since you were only discussing my points I thought that was towards me as well.

Yes I do believe he picked the better option of the two despite them both being wrong in different ways.

I brought Kirigiri's view up because I don't think she should of taken all the blame for this and yes her purpose in getting angry was to show her gradual feelings she had for Naegi.

I do understand Naegi's decision he made and don't have that much of an issue on it compared to other people, I just believe that neither Naegi or Kirigiri should take the full blame for this and they are both at fault on this issue.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:57 pm

Honestly, can I step back for a moment here?

Is there really a "fault" between the two of them at all? I mean, while I do think of the two, Kyoko was "worse" in her reaction, when you get down to it, their actions were in character and, in Kyoko's case, showed us a new side of the character.

If anyone's really at fault here, and I mean really really, it's Monokuma. While I do think Kyoko messed up in reacting badly for days and not giving Makoto a chance to explain himself, ultimately, she was just expressing her emotions here. Is that something we can really call a fault? Is that really something we can "blame" her for, when it was in fact actually good writing in that it made her a more human character? And the same goes to Makoto and his supposed "mistake" in this situation.

Seriously, deep down - maybe not even that deep - the one at fault here is the bad guy.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:18 pm

Well if you are going in that direction then yes Monokuma is the real blame for this but Monokuma is Momkuma and he's the one who's trapped them inside the school in the first place so there's really no need to bring him into this.

They are both partially at fault here and its precisely because they were both in the wrong in some way that the both of them reconcile and their relationship grows or as Persona would call it their "social link" has deepened. There's nothing wrong with them being in the wrong as everybody has made mistakes before and these mistakes make us grow as people.

Both you and I know that Neagi and Kirigiri could of handled the situation better but because of how their relationship was at the time as well as how their characters have been portrayed so far, the both of them made a mistake. And I have no problem with that.

Edit: From the looks of it, you seem to think that me thinking they are both partially wrong in this issue is a bad thing to the story's plot but I don't think that at all, its because they were both wrong they developed as characters and this is what I believe Spike were trying to achieve here.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:49 pm

I don't think that you think them being wrong is bad or good, actually. What I think, as I've said repeatedly, is that Makoto wasn't wrong in the first place.

He could have handled the situation better, sure. But that doesn't mean he could have been right over the wrong he was being - I'm saying he could have been more right than he already was.

There is nothing to point to his actions and ONLY his actions as wrong. If you look at his actions and the actions he would have taken, he wasn't wrong. Not telling Kyoko right away was the right thing to do from her perspective, and perhaps the objective perspective as well.

And this is why, in this specific case, I think we need to bring Monokuma into it, actually. Had Makoto just had the chance to talk to who he needed to, he could have gotten back to Kyoko and that would have been it. He didn't get that chance.

Are you seriously going to tell me he was wrong because he wasn't able to freeze time so he could talk to Sakura and Kyoko all before Monokuma spilled the beans? That was out of his control. It's absurd to put any blame on him here when, at the very worst, the way he told Kyoko (but not the fact that he did it) could have been worded better.

That's so incredibly minor. In comparison, Kyoko doesn't talk to him for days.

While I agree that this was a growing moment for their "social link," it was very much more on Kyoko's end. Makoto did the right thing and his biggest "crime" here was not wording something perfectly that, if he had gotten his way (which needs to be accounted for, as this was part of WHY he didn't tell her), he would have likely been coming to her with an apology and an explanation within a day. There would have been no problem had his action gotten the follow through he intended on, which Monokuma denied him.

On the other hand, Kyoko gave him the silent treatment for a few days because her feelings got hurt.

There really is no comparing the two.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:26 pm

Okay I'm just going to be repeating a lot of what I have said in my earlier posts as I've already stated my views on this issue enough, so i'll say this:

I do admit that Kirigiri should not of been so angry with Naegi for so long even after finding out the reason Naegi was hiding something but as I said earlier she had felt betrayed by Naegi and that is what Naegi did that was wrong even if that wasn't his intention, he still did something that he could of potentially avoided if he worded his sentence better to Kirigiri at the time.

I still believe they were both in the wrong for different reasons that I have already stated in my earlier posts and with that I would like to end my debate on this here as you have clearly given me your point of view which I don't completely agree with and I believe we'll just be going around in circles if we continue this and I think I have spend more than enough time on an issue I didn't have that much of a problem with unlike vampko.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby lopez » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:39 pm

Was Kyoko even "angry" at all? There are a few instances where she mentions being neutral and that "hiding" one's emotions is a vital skill. She also goes on to pretend that she's "hurt" about something, only to have the opposite party let down their guard so that they'll reveal something important to her.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:15 pm

@Mirai
Okay, you've said they're both at fault, but you've yet to actually say what Makoto even did wrong in the first place. That's part of my problem here. We can clearly point at what Kyoko did, but not Makoto.

@lopez
It's pretty clear she's upset with him (especially since she apologizes). Makoto had nothing to tell her at this point, she was just legitimately hurt that (from her perspective) he didn't trust her.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby lopez » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:28 pm

I don't know, I understood her "anger" as a means to an end. She knew how "honest" and "simple" Makoto was, so what better way than to play with his emotions to get the info she wanted. After she figured out Makoto's "secret" on her own, she gave up the "act" and realized his "secret" wasn't anything particularly important, at least in her mind (she never really trusted anyone anyways, so knowing about a spy wouldn't be too shocking to her).
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:35 pm

I... think you basically missed the entire point of this, my man.

What happened is Kyoko was finally (as was necessary at this point) shown to be human. She placed her trust in Makoto, and she felt like he betrayed that trust (and her) by not giving his trust back to her in turn. The point wasn't that she wanted the specific information, it was that she wanted Makoto to be able to talk to her and was genuinely hurt when, after opening up, he didn't do that. It was a poignant and necessary moment of character and relationship development and let players see that Kyoko was just as human as everyone else.

... whereas what you're describing is practically the exact opposite of what happened and makes her sound like a soulless robot. It also just makes her look to be incompetent, honestly, because if she were working like that, ignoring Makoto serves no purpose whatsoever.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby lopez » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:00 pm

Being protective of one's emotions doesn't make one any less "human" than one who is overly expressive. I personally thought Kyoko was as "human" as everyone else, she was just smart enough to control her emotions and subsequently control a discussion because of it. If Kyoko wasn't in the class trials keeping her level-head and using sound reasoning to counter the various hot-headed people with their false accusations, then everybody except the killer would be dead.

On the other hand, I wouldn't consider Sayaka "human" because of what she did.

Honestly, if we're talking about being hurt and whatnot, then Makoto was a "jerk" for "hiding" his info from Kyoko. The context of the battle Makoto saw makes it seem like Sakura was done being a spy/tool. Also, Monokuma is all about abiding the rules, so there really was no reason for Makoto not to tell Kyoko what he saw.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:10 pm

That's not what I meant - I meant the whole idea that, after the reveal, she manipulated her own emotions to get reactions she wanted out of Makoto. That makes her look more like some goal oriented robot than a real, human character who was hurt that her finally opening up to someone didn't go how she wanted.

Well, except for all the reasons we've spent the last few pages discussing, the reasons Makoto had, and the reasons Kyoko herself admitted as being valid.

Makoto had no idea what he was seeing. Was it an act? After all, when Junko defied Monokuma, she died right there - Sakura, though, was having a DBZ battle with him. From Makoto's perspective, that drastically contradicts Monokuma's actions, and brings Sakura into question. But he still wants to trust Sakura, so he wants to talk to her and get the story straight before progressing things further. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby vampko » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:02 pm

Finished Chapter 4

Part of me was completely spoiled because someone said on the chapter 3 thread about Yasuhiro making a prediction about not dying and it being true. Which is what happened here :(

There are also other spoilers going on in the other threads, and I'd like to remind people that spoilers are not acceptable. There's a reason for this chapter thread setup. Spoiler tags don't make it okay.

Business out of the way. I'm not sure what to think of this chapter. The Asahina and Sakura stuff was really great, but that's just my shipper mentality of course. The case itself....It was fun to watch Byakuya freak out, and Toko's always a bundle of fun. But, I still feel like maybe I'm just too good at these things to be fooled by a murder mystery?

Though, the main story does continue to be interesting. I was kinda meh at Alter Ego's "death". It just didn't feel like anything to me, just Monokuma blowing off some steam. It was obvious that plan wouldn't go anywhere, I mean they were HORRIBLE at keeping it a "secret". They said what it was so often. And then they went on their "secret meetings" by everyone "taking a bath" at the same time. When just before they were completely against taking mixed baths.

Byakuya didn't take part in this stupidity until the very end, and Toko didn't either, so I guess it wasn't that surprising that the people left were being so utterly incompetent. Though, i did expect more out of Kyouko I will admit.

Back to the Kyouko Makoto fight...I dont' believe Makoto made the "right" decision. I've already stated it once before, but you dont' ask someone if theyr'e a spy. You just don't. Not without some sort of backup plan of sorts. And, if he truly trusted Kyouko, he would have told her. Of course, if Kyouko fully trusted Makoto, she wouldn't have worried about what he was hiding. Though, she had complete reason to be worried, since he was hiding something rather big. I mean...gosh....he saw it. Straight up right in front of his face. He wasn't dreaming and he knew that. All he was debating was whether he was correctly interpreting what he saw.

Anyway, long story short, he was most certainly being a hyprocrite. It was in character, but why does that make him any less of one?

As for him being an idiot: Room is locked that wasn't locked before< "Must be nothing". I see things like this throughout.

Yeah, he pulls off some things during trials, but, up until recently, it's all been others egging him on the entire time. Heck, even during this trial, he didn't bring anything "new" to the table, he only said what others(mostly Kyouko) lead him into saying. He didn't even find most of the evidence or understand why it was evidence until Kyouko lead him to the answer, as has happened from the start. People are always leading him to the answers. In my opinion, that's not really showing "intelligence".

Is he stupid? Probably not, just more of an average kind of person. Like he stressed at the very beginning.

Anyway, that's another chapter down. Apparently I'm only "halfway" through, but I only have two chapters left. So...yeah. Guessing they're gonig to continue dragging the trials out.

I feel really sad for Hina, but I have a feeling that it's all going to get ruined by the end of chapter 5. knowing the way things go -_-
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:14 pm

I just refer you to my previous posts about Makoto in response to that. :lol:

Agreed on the spoilers. I don't think I've seen too many more but it's a good policy for this game.

Why do you think it's going to be ruined, exactly?
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dangan Ronpa Chapter 4 Discussion

Postby vampko » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:45 pm

Seventh wrote:I just refer you to my previous posts about Makoto in response to that. :lol:

Agreed on the spoilers. I don't think I've seen too many more but it's a good policy for this game.

Why do you think it's going to be ruined, exactly?

It's more fun if I don't disclose everything I'm thinking. I'll let you know the answer after I finish chapter 5, or it might be a longer wait depending on what happens during that chapter.
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