Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEEE)

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Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEEE)

Postby vampko » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:19 am

First, I decided to bring this here, because we may as well have a topic dedicated to this, as people seem to have plenty to say about it. And it's best to not continually flood the "worst chapter" topic with this. For a quick explanation: Hiyoko was not supposed to die, and there was a last minute change that was decided where Fuyuhiko would live and Hiyoko would die, because of not wanting to "waste Peko's sacrifice". This is a debate about that very subject.
That said
Zetsubear wrote:Regarding the Fuyuhiko vs Hiyoko crap,
Spoiler:
Hiyoko, a Fake Cutie self-centered bully with very little in terms of character development even after her Morality Pet Mahiru died and did nothing to really contribute to any cases before her own death. Not helped by the fact her two main targets both had long and painful histories with being bullied in school, and she is never called out by anyone for her abuse. Eventually, one of her targets ends up killing her, but it's only because Hiyoko spotted her killing someone else and not out of revenge for being a constant victim of Hiyoko's abuse. It's somewhat telling that in discussions of Chapter 2, more people tend to sympathize with Fuyuhiko (who's largely responsible for the murder), and Peko (the killer) than they do with Hiyoko. The fact that she was originally going to be one of the survivors as the Byakuya parallel before being swapped with the much more likeable Fuyuhiko doesn't help her case either, since we can't tell what her original arc would have been like due to Fuyuhiko's development having a much stronger early in-game basis, while what we do see from her ends up being far too little much too late for most players and seems more like an Informed Attribute

(Thank you TV Tropes)

I sympathized more with Hiyoko. And, Fuyuhiko's "development" was lightspeed. Even then, he barely was anyone who needed development in the first place. He just was one big tsundere that tsun tsun'd and secretly tried to always get along with everyone. All Peko's death did was get rid of the tsun'ing. He wanted to do all that stuff originally. BARELY ANYTHING CHANGED!!! Hiyoko had had a past where she couldn't trust anyone and would constantly be bullied herself, to the point she was forced to live with other relatives and couldn't even be with her parents anymore. Her parents whom she actually did love. So, she built up a personality to deal with that. A personality that Mahiru saw through. Even while doing all of Hiyoko's hope fragments, (except the last one I don't know yet, as I didn't make it to the final completed one), Hajime doesn't really truly understand Hiyoko. He starts to, and then reverts because of some backbiting remark she makes. Not to mention how Hiyoko actually was a real enigma with how she could fake cry, and real cry, and you couldn't barely ever tell which one she was doing. That's getting off-topic now xD

back on topic then. So, Hiyoko's actual walls are much more real, and have much more needed to break them down. First, let me say this, I don't at all think that her background excuses how she treats others, I'm just saying it makes it understandable. Okay, so, Hiyoko has some extremely sturdy walls built up. Or rather, it seems like she does. but one person seems to crash right through them. Maybe that was fate? Who knows, as in the class photo they're clearly at least friends already. But everyone else has quite the cement enclosure to break through. When Mahiru dies, Hiyoko starts to slowly change. Not suddenly drop everything that made her even slightly interesting in the name of "character development", she actually and truly begins going through much more real and believable character development. Ever so slightly she starts being a bit nicer to others, and trusting of them. Her words still contain some bite, but there's just a little something else slowly making its way into those words. She actually begins to maybe try and possibly get close with others too. But, then she's killed for the most contrived of reasons. And all that is completely shoved down the drain.

That bit about Hiyoko being killed completely by chance and not for a reason is part of the reason exactly why this chapter suffered for the decision that was made to not include Hiyoko among the list of the living. Chapter 3 was full of plot holes and contrivances. A stark contrast to the previous chapters, and the writing doesn't really get back on track till chapter 5.

Moving onto other things. What does Fuyuhiko really contribute? Not much in actuality. He doesn't help in trials anymore than anyone else could have helped at that point. His character as a whole, was nearly as necessary as Soda's. But, he at least had someone to keep him from giving up on everything. Which Hiyoko would have had (to note). Also, Hiyoko actually did help in trials, though she caused some problems in the trial where she was most suspected, her weird way of going about things helped in ways that aren't immediately obvious. But, we also never got to see how helpful she could be in the future trials, as she was already dead. I'd imagine that she would have proved a lot more help really. Fuyuhiko just kinda chimes in, but doesn't really offer much in the ways of helping the cases get solved. You'd be surprised how much more help someone with bite to their words is when trying to figure out things than someone who doesn't really have anything to their words. Basically, when someone doesn't hold back, they can more easily reveal things that others had been missing. The two times would be when Fuyuhiko gave that thing about blood when poison is used, and when he prevented Gundam from returning to the room. The latter is just a convenient possibility that any one could have fulfilled/could easily have been handled differently. The poison thing is something not as much. But, overall, it wasn't horribly necessary really. Well, that's up for debate I guess? I don't really see how it was needed to be talked about, and didn't when I played it. It felt similar to when Yasuhiro talked about ghosts in the first game's final trial. Not as bad of course, but yeah. (I hated that section, so you'll probably see me ragging on it often)

I think I've hit my thinking limit for now. Will continue this later on. Oh, and I don't dislike Fuyuhiko, but he really wasn't that interesting to me. It was fun to watch him tsun tsun'ing around, but then he lost anything really distinguishing once Peko died. And became just another person. On a different note, I'll have to get through Fuyuhiko's hope fragments before I continue with this probably. It's only fair really.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Zetsubear » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:20 am

tl;dr

>I sympathized with Hiyoko

Translation: If she wasn't a loli character, I would hate the shit out of her.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:04 am

I think either of them would've been fine, but I also don't think they made a mistake in letting Fuyuhiko survive instead.

The back-biting remark thing actually speaks volumes about how people generally perceive her character, and Hajime's reaction is pretty on-point. For every indication that she's a better person deep down, that her behavior has a justifiable basis, that she starts to change after Mahiru's death, she always does or says something that fucks it up and reverts everyone's opinion of her back.

That may seem fickle, but people are like that. It's hard to change people's opinions of you, especially when you're that abrasive about it.

Fuyuhiko's development might seem lightning fast, but that's how trauma works sometimes. He had a fair amount of time in the hospital bed to make the firm and resolute decision to work with the others instead of against them. I think that's believable. That's the kind of person he is, firm and resolute. If he says he'll do something, he'll do it.

I'll admit that Hiyoko had unused potential to grow as a character, but the same could be said for any number of people who die in this series. It's kind of the point, death is tragic because you never know what they could've done or could've been. Her Dangan Island stuff does shed some light on it, though.

Also, it's not like she's really dead.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:21 am

ZekeFreek wrote:I think either of them would've been fine, but I also don't think they made a mistake in letting Fuyuhiko survive instead.

The back-biting remark thing actually speaks volumes about how people generally perceive her character, and Hajime's reaction is pretty on-point. For every indication that she's a better person deep down, that her behavior has a justifiable basis, that she starts to change after Mahiru's death, she always does or says something that fucks it up and reverts everyone's opinion of her back.

That may seem fickle, but people are like that. It's hard to change people's opinions of you, especially when you're that abrasive about it.

Fuyuhiko's development might seem lightning fast, but that's how trauma works sometimes. He had a fair amount of time in the hospital bed to make the firm and resolute decision to work with the others instead of against them. I think that's believable. That's the kind of person he is, firm and resolute. If he says he'll do something, he'll do it.

I'll admit that Hiyoko had unused potential to grow as a character, but the same could be said for any number of people who die in this series. It's kind of the point, death is tragic because you never know what they could've done or could've been. Her Dangan Island stuff does shed some light on it, though.

Also, it's not like she's really dead.

It's just watching someone immediately get rid of anything that made them interesting is a lot less interesting than watching someone gradually improve.

For me anyway.

others weren't beginning a major personality shift though. Everyone else who died didn't change much. Gundam started to realize he was in love with Sonia. I'll give that. But really, other than that, there wasn't anything starting that got snipped away. And Sonia got to live on.

Yes, that is the most interesting thing. But, the likelihood of that having any sort of continuation is rather low if the creator's desire to bring things to the future is any indicator.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:22 am

Like, I would've been happy to see her develop into someone who isn't my least favorite character
drae spoils
Spoiler:
well until monaka pushed hiyoko face first down the steps to #2


but like I'm a lot happier that Fuyu Kuzu lived because he turned out to be actually really likable once he dropped his "I hate everything/I don't need anyone" facade and he's kinda one of the best developed characters in the game.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Zetsubear » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:37 am

GoldStarz wrote:Like, I would've been happy to see her develop into someone who isn't my least favorite character
drae spoils
Spoiler:
well until monaka pushed hiyoko face first down the steps to #2


but like I'm a lot happier that Fuyu Kuzu lived because he turned out to be actually really likable once he dropped his "I hate everything/I don't need anyone" facade and he's kinda one of the best developed characters in the game.

I like you. *Claps*

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:57 am

I'll give V-tan a little benefit of the doubt and say her being a loli is only a small contributing factor.

...Probably.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Mirai » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:09 pm

For the time being, I'll just cut to the chase as I've debated over this issue so so so so so so so many times, across the DR fan base I've lost count.

Okay now before I continue on I would like to point out that I am not a "fan-boy" of either characters, the prime reason I prefer Hiyoko over Kuzuryuu is because she gets my sympathy vote and he doesn't.

To put it simply, I feel sorry for Hiyoko's suffering but I don't for Kuzuryuu's suffering. Why? Because he brought it upon himself. I have no sympathy for people who's suffering is self-inflicted, not only that but he never does anything to truly redeem himself for his actions.

@Goldstar: (In reply from the other topic.) I'm pretty sure what I said back then, is Kuzuryuu is an example of NOT (fail-version) how to do a Togami-like character. Unlike Togami, Kuzuryuu isn't talented and he hides behind his family's power like a coward. He's a "bark but no bite" character, similar to the likes of Matou Shinji from Fate/Stay Night with the difference being that Kuzuryuu at the very least changes, whereas Shinji doesn't.

Well that's my short answer to this topic.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Beedlebud » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:29 pm

ZekeFreek wrote:I'll give V-tan a little benefit of the doubt and say her being a loli is only a small contributing factor.

...Probably.


>V-tan

Do you have nicknames for everyone :geek: ?

Also on this issue, I liked both characters. I was sad that Hiyoko bit it, it would've been interesting to see how she would've developed. But I can say that for a lot of characters in the series so \(._.)/
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby G3n3raL86 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:46 pm

Mirai wrote:For the time being, I'll just cut to the chase as I've debated over this issue so so so so so so so many times, across the DR fan base I've lost count.

Okay now before I continue on I would like to point out that I am not a "fan-boy" of either characters, the prime reason I prefer Hiyoko over Kuzuryuu is because she gets my sympathy vote and he doesn't.

To put it simply, I feel sorry for Hiyoko's suffering but I don't for Kuzuryuu's suffering. Why? Because he brought it upon himself. I have no sympathy for people who's suffering is self-inflicted, not only that but he never does anything to truly redeem himself for his actions.

@Goldstar: (In reply from the other topic.) I'm pretty sure what I said back then, is Kuzuryuu is an example of NOT (fail-version) how to do a Togami-like character. Unlike Togami, Kuzuryuu isn't talented and he hides behind his family's power like a coward. He's a "bark but no bite" character, similar to the likes of Matou Shinji from Fate/Stay Night with the difference being that Kuzuryuu at the very least changes, whereas Shinji doesn't.

Well that's my short answer to this topic.


I don't think that Kuzuryuu came to replace Togami on that department. He's entirely different.

That being said, Togami in the first game never had any interesting development. He was like "It's me and my family's heritage and then it's you, the lowly worms and you should bow to me" most of the time, if not always like this. Even at the end he was saying: "You can always call me, as long as it's not anything stupid.", implying that he still viewed the others lowly.

Kuzuryuu had his share of development and i really liked the guy afterwards. He was more human and understanding than the asshole in the first chapters.

And of course, you can't expect from all the characters to be Togami-like, "everything's gonna be resolved".
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:08 pm

Do you have nicknames for everyone :geek: ?


To be fair, Darc made up your nickname, not me. Beedlebro.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:37 pm

*insert "sore wa chigau yo" here*

Mirai wrote:To put it simply, I feel sorry for Hiyoko's suffering but I don't for Kuzuryuu's suffering. Why? Because he brought it upon himself. I have no sympathy for people who's suffering is self-inflicted, not only that but he never does anything to truly redeem himself for his actions.

First of all, Fuyu's suffering isn't self-inflected. Yeah, he totally meant to kill Mahiru, but that's the thing he planned to kill Mahiru. He knew he was gonna get caught, and he was content with that if it meant doing what he felt was the honorable thing of holding an eye for an eye for his sister's death. The problem is, Peko knew he would get caught and wasn't about to let him sacrifice himself so she stepped in and killed Mahiru herself. If Fuyu had killed Mahiru himself, that would've been self-inflicted, Peko stepping in was entirely outside of his control.

As for not redeeming himself, you must dislike Chapter 3 to the point of blocking it out because that's literally ALL Fuyuhiko does. His reintroduction of himself, his seppuku scene, his volunteering at the hospital; all of that is just so that everyone can forgive him for acting the way he has and causing the Second Trial to occur. He literally thinks his life means nothing after the incident because he's only alive from Peko's sacrifice (twice over). In Chapter 4, he attempts to talk to Akane about what happened with Nekomaru because he knows that she blames herself for him becoming a robot because he'd felt the same way after Peko died and encourages her to still make the most of their time together (even if Akane isn't hearing any of this, but that's an entirely different story). My point is saying that Fuyu does nothing to redeem himself is more along the lines of how Hiyoko acted in Chapter 3, ignorant and blindly belligerent.

@Goldstar: (In reply from the other topic.) I'm pretty sure what I said back then, is Kuzuryuu is an example of NOT (fail-version) how to do a Togami-like character. Unlike Togami, Kuzuryuu isn't talented and he hides behind his family's power like a coward.


Like, I'm not even gonna waste my time with that one, that's literally the opposite of true. Fuyu makes it very clear that if he's gonna make it, he wants to make it as him, not as the Kuzuryu Clan's heir. I mean, that's literally a plot point. That's why Peko wasn't revealed as his bodyguard until she was already voted out. He wants none of his family's power to help win him over (also, honestly i think togami's other talents were just kinda a fluke and he really was chosen because he was a rich heir but that's really nothing anyone can prove).

Edit: Also, you're still not explaining how they're the same type of character? I think your problem maybe you just pushing the right block into the wrong hole.

He's a "bark but no bite" character, similar to the likes of Matou Shinji from Fate/Stay Night with the difference being that Kuzuryuu at the very least changes, whereas Shinji doesn't.

Well that's my short answer to this topic.


Yes. That is literally the point? His beginning personality isn't real, it's just a mask he wears so that he can seem threatening and live up to the hype built up around him. While he is totally capable of killing someone, the act very clearly mentally disturbs him and him killing Sato is more than likely what lead to him becoming Ultimate Despair in the first place. Essentially, Fuyu CAN be that person, but he doesn't WANT to be that person.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:47 pm

Well, "sore wa chigau zo" consider we're talking about DR2. *-Hajime's version is decidedly more blunt.

Still, *applause*
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:21 am

Yeah, I don't really care for Kuzuryu, but I barely saw him as the reason for Mahiru's death.

I think I recall reading it here somewhere (maybe not in this thread, but in the one this spawned from), but there was talk about "Peko's sacrifice" versus "Mahiru's sacrifice". I don't disagree at all that Mahiru didn't be a sacrificial lamb. And I'm fine with that. She was killed for something really dumb in my opinion. "You knew who killed my sister but because she was a good friend of yours you didn't rat her out!" I guess that's yakuza mentality for you, but eh....and the killer was killed anyway. So it just seemed kinda pointless to also kill Mahiru for something like that. OFF TOPIC I WENT

Anyway, while Mahiru wasn't a "sacrifice", she still proved to be a very important kickstart to some really interesting character development. So, while it wasn't "let's not let Mahiru's sacrifice be in vain", all the same, the situations between Fuyuhiko and Hiyoko are equal. They both lost someone really important to them that made it so they wanted to change how they looked at the world. Both of them didn't really open up to anyone and kept to themselves, except for a single person. And that was who died, their "single person". Before this change, Fuyuhiko responded with all sorts of tsun tsun'ing. Hiyoko responded with demeaning, outright insulting language. But the both of them tried to be excluded from most things. Hiyoko was there, but wasn't really "there", unless it had to do with Mahiru. After the change, Hiyoko started to consider the possibility of being friends with others. She even started to tone back her insults some. Yeah, she never really was nice to Mikan, but it was more forced at that point than how naturally it came out before. Meaning she still couldn't fully turn away just yet from what she had done. I imagine, if Hiyoko hadn't been one of the dead, she would have shown even further growth after Mikan's death. Likely even apologized for what she had done. Heck, during the trial I could have seen that beginning to take shape. I mean, people don't normally change overnight. Even when a traumatic event happens, people still really don't change overnight. It takes time, people revert, but change slowly takes root. That's the believable sort of development I like. And that's what Hiyoko was displaying before they just wasted all of that.

Fuyuhiko, as I've gone over multiple times, was not this. He just changed overnight basically. Yeah, he did things to get acceptance from the others, but that wasn't a gradual anything, that was a "LOOK AT ME! I'VE CHANGED!" It was too quick for me. I understand the parallels, Fuyuhiko's change was more immediately realized to be heartfelt, which is why he resonated more with others. But, Hiyoko, on the other hand, was a much more subtle less speedy change. One that would have likely resulted in something amazing. I mean, it's one thing to see a tsundere drop the tsun. It's another to see someone go from a distrusting backbiting jerk, to someone who cares about others and tries to have their best interests in mind. To me the latter is infinitely more interesting. But the latter didn't happen, and the former did :(

I keep on writing too much...xD

Hiyoko really is my favorite Danganronpa character right now :lol:
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:07 am

Fuyuhiko changed "overnight" because his attitude was a mere facade all along. It wasn't a personality change, he just decided to work with the others.

Hiyoko's attitude was never an act. Yes, she's not as bad as she seems deep down, but it's pretty fucking far down. So obviously it would take her longer to change because she actually needed to change.

Their developments are not equivalent, so comparing them is a dumb point.
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