Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEEE)

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:24 pm

@Vampko: I can't really quote you for this, but I think you main problem with Fuyu is you liked who he wasn't more than you like who he was and you were disappointed when it was revealed that the person you liked never actually existed at all. Fuyuhiko's development is different from Hiyoko's because while Fuyu didn't actually believe what he was saying, Hiyoko had been taught those lesson for most of her life and strongly held onto them.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:11 pm

GoldStarz wrote:@Vampko: I can't really quote you for this, but I think you main problem with Fuyu is you liked who he wasn't more than you like who he was and you were disappointed when it was revealed that the person you liked never actually existed at all. Fuyuhiko's development is different from Hiyoko's because while Fuyu didn't actually believe what he was saying, Hiyoko had been taught those lesson for most of her life and strongly held onto them.

He was who he was. After Peko, he completely changed. If you want to say that after Peko he didn't change at all, then...well, you're just saying that he got zero development and was a 100% stagnant character. I really don't think that's what you're meaning to get across, but you only know what you want to get across, and I can only attempt to understand.

He was most certainly a tsundere. Masks you wear, are still part of who you are. You wouldn't wear that mask if it wasn't. Regardless of why the mask gets put on, once it's put on, it's a part of you.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:27 pm

vampko wrote:
GoldStarz wrote:@Vampko: I can't really quote you for this, but I think you main problem with Fuyu is you liked who he wasn't more than you like who he was and you were disappointed when it was revealed that the person you liked never actually existed at all. Fuyuhiko's development is different from Hiyoko's because while Fuyu didn't actually believe what he was saying, Hiyoko had been taught those lesson for most of her life and strongly held onto them.

He was who he was. After Peko, he completely changed. If you want to say that after Peko he didn't change at all, then...well, you're just saying that he got zero development and was a 100% stagnant character. I really don't think that's what you're meaning to get across, but you only know what you want to get across, and I can only attempt to understand.

He was most certainly a tsundere. Masks you wear, are still part of who you are. You wouldn't wear that mask if it wasn't. Regardless of why the mask gets put on, once it's put on, it's a part of you.

See I thought you'd at least be easier about it than Mirai, but sorry no. He wasn't. Masks you wear aren't who you are, they aren't apart of who you are. That is literally why they're called masks, they cover up who you are. Learning to drop a mask is character development. Learning from your mistakes and become a better person is character development. Using what you've learned to try and help others is a sign of character development. Saying his beginning personality was his personality is incorrect. Saying that he never developed all, even outside of dropping his mask, is incorrect. You are incorrect. If you like Hiyoko over Fuyuhiko, that is fine, that is your choice. If you preferred she's lived over Fuyuhiko, that's also fine, it's understandable and I'm sorry you never got to see. However the reason's you don't like Fuyuhiko are bullshit and I won't be hearing them because there based on what you want to be the truth, not the actual truth. That is all.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:45 pm

GoldStarz wrote:
vampko wrote:
GoldStarz wrote:@Vampko: I can't really quote you for this, but I think you main problem with Fuyu is you liked who he wasn't more than you like who he was and you were disappointed when it was revealed that the person you liked never actually existed at all. Fuyuhiko's development is different from Hiyoko's because while Fuyu didn't actually believe what he was saying, Hiyoko had been taught those lesson for most of her life and strongly held onto them.

He was who he was. After Peko, he completely changed. If you want to say that after Peko he didn't change at all, then...well, you're just saying that he got zero development and was a 100% stagnant character. I really don't think that's what you're meaning to get across, but you only know what you want to get across, and I can only attempt to understand.

He was most certainly a tsundere. Masks you wear, are still part of who you are. You wouldn't wear that mask if it wasn't. Regardless of why the mask gets put on, once it's put on, it's a part of you.

See I thought you'd at least be easier about it than Mirai, but sorry no. He wasn't. Masks you wear aren't who you are, they aren't apart of who you are. That is literally why they're called masks, they cover up who you are. Learning to drop a mask is character development. Learning from your mistakes and become a better person is character development. Using what you've learned to try and help others is a sign of character development. Saying his beginning personality was his personality is incorrect. Saying that he never developed all, even outside of dropping his mask, is incorrect. You are incorrect. If you like Hiyoko over Fuyuhiko, that is fine, that is your choice. If you preferred she's lived over Fuyuhiko, that's also fine, it's understandable and I'm sorry you never got to see. However the reason's you don't like Fuyuhiko are bullshit and I won't be hearing them because there based on what you want to be the truth, not the actual truth. That is all.

I"m just...done. If you really want to insist that wasn't Fuyuhiko at all until after Peko died, then fine. He had no character development. He was the same person from the start. There just was this force that had nothing to do with him, twisting our perception. Fuyuhiko really did participate in those things. Fuyuhiko never once said he didn't want to participate in those things. Fuyuhiko was a big team player from the start. Fuyuhiko never secretly attempted to join in on the things that everyone else was doing, because he already was there of course! Fuyuhiko didn't talk to Chiaki during the party, because he was inside, so how could he have talked to Chiaki? That just makes no sense.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:11 pm

Nobody said that.

Fuyuhiko was not a different kind of person. He didn't change in that sense. They way he acts later in the game was how he was all along. Just not to the others. He put up a front around them until it was broken by Peko's death.

Then after he had time to think things over in the hospital, he decided to apologize to them for his behavior and work with the others. It wasn't that he changed as a person. He just went from "I want nothing to do with these people" to "I need to work with these people". He acted like a jerk to distance himself from them and later changed his mind.

I do not understand what about this is so difficult for you to understand.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:52 pm

I'm honestly so disappointed now, VampKo has literally no argument and is either making nonsensical statements to try and win their argument or is just completely lost at the concept that Fuyuhiko wasn't who he was on first appearance and still developed after he dropped his act/him dropping his act itself being development. As for Mirai, I'm really disappointed because they came back at me with nothing and as someone I respected, I thought they'd at least come up with a decent counterargument, but all they did was try and twist my words in a way that was easily undone. Can't you guys just admit you just prefer Hiyoko because you like her more and get on with it?

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby G3n3raL86 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:42 am

Just like GoldStarz, I too prefer Kuzuryu over Hiyoko (my reasons are above), but I don't think that we should take it on a personal level. Let's respect each other opinions on this matter.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:26 am

I still don't agree with it, but this is definitely an issue of a fundamentally different way of seeing things. Even if I give you that it's just "a front", it doesn't change the fact that the change was instant. Had no steps inbetween. Just, from one to the other. Which is the basis of why I didn't find him that interesting and felt he had some of the worst "devleopment" there is out there. For me anyway. I prefer things slow and trying.

And that's all I've been trying to say from the start. it doesn't matter whether someone wants to put forth the argument that masks are not a part of a person, or that they aren't. The change was instantaneous. And yes, I found him boring afterwards. I don't get why that has to be defended or anything. My "first impressions" of him were not bad at all. If we go with what you insist, then I just never liked Fuyuhiko and only liked the shell he had.

Got it. Moving forward.

I think it might be a good idea to go over the likely problems that resulted from this decision.

So, first up! The (in)famous Chapter 3!!

Hiyoko's death was barely even touched on. In all the other trials they go into how someone died in pretty extreme detail, but Hiyoko had a mention on the Monukuma file, but nothing else at all was really gone over. She just was killed by a wound on her throat. That's literally all we have. The weapon was never touched. The how was never touched. The fact that there were no signs of a struggle and yet Hiyoko was a completely unplanned kill, really is quite questionable.

Then, we have Ibuki. Was her body dragged to the music venue? Why did no one notice Mikan running around? How did Mikan run at light speed?

I'm sure others can think of other questions to ask. As this chapter was full of issues.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:36 am

IT WAS NOT A CHANGE.

Is it REALLY so hard to believe he would decide to work with the others after what happened? This isn't some epiphany he had as a person, he just decided to open up to them. And he had like... what was it, 4 days sitting in a hospital bed with nothing to do but think things over?

There's no point in this conversation. I'm beginning think it's not a matter of you understanding, but simply a matter of you not fucking listening.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Mirai » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:25 pm

vampko wrote:I'm sure others can think of other questions to ask. As this chapter was full of issues.


Chapter 3 had several issues on its case because Hiyoko's death was a last-minute decision by the developers and it clearly shows as you said yourself in your post.

GoldStarz wrote:Addressed this, Fuyu outright said he was going to; Peko didn't even step in until he reached for the bat.


"Actions speak louder than words!"

This is an important sentence for both Kuzuryuu and Hiyoko here. There is nothing definite to say Kuzuryuu was going to kill Mahiru here and that's not all, as based on how his character has behaved, I doubt he was ever going to kill her. Remember how he backed away from Souda when he provoked him into a fight? The moment things are about to get physical Kuzuryuu backs down and if necessary will get Peko to do it in his stead. If it was someone like Mondo who was in this position, then I would most likely agree that he would of killed. But based on what I've seen of his character, at most he would of threatened her with the bat. As you keep saying yourself his "Yakuza" like behaviour is just a mask.

GoldStarz wrote:I'm not blaming Hiyoko for not forgiving him, I'm blaming her for not even acknowledging that Fuyu is trying to apologize to her.

Also, you're literally saying "the only way I'd like him is if he died", and let's be honest here, him dying wouldn't actually change anything for you. Like I'm fine with you hating/disliking the character, but if you're gonna hate a character for no real reason (at least, you've yet to actually supply a half decently-formed reason) then at least just own up to it. Either way, if the only way you'd have liked Fuyu's development... Is if he didn't have his development, well I don't even know why we're debating this, because that means you're clearly not willing to actually go through with this if your points are proven wrong.


Okay GoldStarz, If I was the mastermind behind your best friends death and even framed you for the crime, as well as nearly getting the rest of your classmates killed, would you seriously ever acknowledge me? Because if it was me, I wouldn't. I would utterly despise them and believe them to be a heartless bastard who deserves nothing. Hence to me Hiyoko's behaviour here is perfectly understandable. Besides towards the end of the chapter she does actually start to open up to him.

No I never wanted him to just "drop dead", I thought posting the links to those two tropes would of helped to get my message across, so again I'll explain. As Vampko said earlier him just committing Seppuku is essentially him trying to run away from his problems, so that's a no-no since that's cowardly and again I'll quote that line from earlier "Actions speak louder than words". Apart from the time he tried to run away from everything with "Seppuku", he never again "shows" just how sorry he is, just apologising isn't going to make up for it. Instead he needed to do something, something that would of really helped and contributed to the rest of the team. Something to make up for him nearly killing the rest of the characters and what better way to do this then by sacrificing yourself to save them? Oh wait isn't that what TANAKA did in Chapter 4? If Kuzuryuu swapped places with Tanaka and gave a speech something like. "Back then I just wanted to die and run away from all my problems, however I was told by Nidai, that if I really wanted to redeem myself I should live on, to help the rest of you in anyway I can. As I saw the rest of you starving to death, I felt I had to do something and that's when Nidai came to me with this idea, a way to save you all and as someone who has caused trouble for you all I felt this was my chance to help, to make up for what I've done". And as he dies "Sorry I couldn't keep my promise, I hope you'll forgive me when I see you again....Peko". (Don't take what I said here too literally its an example). If this is what had actually happened then I would of done this:

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Not only would this have shown me proper development from him, as you would never expect Kuzuryuu from the Prologue to do something like this, it would have also shown me as the player that he has truly redeemed himself for his wrongdoings in Chapter 2's case. And then GoldStarz I would of accepted and been happy with his character.

GoldStarz wrote:No I haven't, I literally never said that, although for what it's worth, that's not even a contradiction, and is pretty well summed up. The reason he wants to build up his own power and rely on himself is so that he is worthy of the Kuzuryuu name. He wants people to respect him as an individual and not just as a member of the Kuzu Clan, so that he is worth of being the heir to the clan because he himself doubts his abilities to run the clan.

Also we know that's a part of his actual personality because *points to chapter 2* literally the plot.

As for Byakuya, it's not not true. We literally don't know. We know why he thinks he was chosen, not actually why.


Yes you did, you said he is "very clear" about who he wants to be, if that's the case then why did it take until the conclusion of Chapter 2 to find out? If it was "very clear" we would of known from the start of the game that's who he wanted to be. But you then said he "hides behind a masked personality", well if he does that then its not "very clear" who he wants to be is it? Hence why I said you contradicted yourself. What you probably meant was "As his masked personality is taken off and we see more of the real him, he makes it very clear At this point he wants to be himself, rather than just the heir to the Kuzuryuu clan."

If that's what you really think then that clearly means you haven't seen Togami's FT events because you wouldn't be arguing with me on this if you had.


GoldStarz wrote:You talk like there's only one type of Jerk character, considering you've shown that you know what TV Tropes is, I suggest you look up just how many Jerk character types there and then get back to us on that.


I'm well aware there's several jerk type of characters, my paragraph here was my personal opinion on what I believe to be a successful arrogant jerk character and an unsuccessful arrogant jerk character.

GoldStarz wrote:Again, we know he is, we just also know he didn't want to. We have no indication in the game that anyone other than Fuyu was there when Sato died. You want to talk about things being not true and then you get even more speculative then I do. I mean, at least my speculation was a side note that didn't affect the argument.


Its called Monokuma being a troll, he left the game like that on purpose, to encourage Kuzuryuu to act on this. I repeat, the game never shows you who killed Sato, it implies its Kuzuryuu but based on how Chapter 2 went its likely Peko was the one who killed her. Peko wasn't shown in "Twilight" because it would of given away who the culprit was in the case.


GoldStarz wrote:... Are you asking me to choose between whether Mahiru or Hiyoko died now?

Seriously though, obviously the accomplice, bullying is a horrible thing to do to someone, but outright murder goes way beyond that and helping someone get away with murder is almost as insidious. Admittedly, Mahiru was coerced into doing it because she pretty clearly had a thing for Sato, but even still she committed a crime that helped cover up the fact that Fuyu's Sis's (again why doesn't she have a name?!) murder wasn't random and that her murderer was a student herself.

Edit: I'm sorry if you're disappointed and was expecting a bigger counterargument. Frankly, I am, too. I was expecting a better one.


No I was asking which character is morally worse Kuzuryuu or Hiyoko? I'm glad you at least answered that Kuzuryuu was worse, as some other fans who defend Kuzuryuu have said to me in the past that Hiyoko was worse. Mahiru was not an accomplice to Sis's murder, as she didn't know who did it, until Sato confessed to Mahiru it was her. However Mahiru did remove evidence from the crime scene afterwards to try and protect her, which is a crime that's known as 'perverting the course of justice', whilst not as bad an offense as being an accomplice, you can still go to prison for this act.

No I'm not really, I've debated over worse things in the past, so I'm neither disappointed or that surprised on what you've said.


GoldStarz wrote:As for Mirai, I'm really disappointed because they came back at me with nothing and as someone I respected, I thought they'd at least come up with a decent counterargument, but all they did was try and twist my words in a way that was easily undone. Can't you guys just admit you just prefer Hiyoko because you like her more and get on with it?


Well what were you expecting me to do, just submit, and admit that for the past 2 years, that I've debated over this issue I was wasting my time? Sorry but if I conceded just because "you were disappointed," then I would be out of my job. Also I only twisted your words once, so to say I did it the whole time is quite exaggerative of you. Do I prefer Hiyoko over Fuzuryuu? I do yes but not a hell of a lot more, as really a lot of it is out of sympathy towards her. Overall I'd say she's alright, because her verbal abuse towards Mikan especially was wrong, harsh and in some ways cruel of her. As she was taking advantage over Mikan's rather reserved personality and Mikan had done nothing to Hiyoko to deserve this kind of treatment.

G3n3raL86 wrote:Just like GoldStarz, I too prefer Kuzuryu over Hiyoko (my reasons are above), but I don't think that we should take it on a personal level. Let's respect each other opinions on this matter.

We're here on these forums to share our Ronpa love, right?


One important thing about debating is to not take it personally, so you are right G3n3raL86, just like with the several other users I've debated this with, I may just have to agree to disagree.

We're all discussing this issue right now because we all like DR, because if we didn't we wouldn't be here discussing this in the first place, as we wouldn't care. Not everybody is going to share similar opinions, on the same franchise that they enjoyed. This topic itself is a prime example of this. See how diverse our opinions are despite the fact we have all played the same game. Our cultures, our personal upbringings and several other factors is what has led people to differentiate from one another and form their own multifaceted identity.

*pant* *pant*, wow this took me a good long hour to type all of this out and hopefully even if people disagree with my opinion, they can at least understand where I'm coming from.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:04 pm

I'll just add, that that scene you made up would have really brought up my opinion of Fuyuhiko if it had happened. It's not that I wanted him to die, I just didn't care for him to live, and especially not if Hiyoko's development was cut short due to it. If they both could have lived, that probably would have worked out things for the best. And Soda could have been the one to bite it. And pretty much everyone would have been happy. The Soda fans maybe not, but I think people would be happier overall. And if he must live and Hiyoko must die, then at least make him do something interesting. Instead of "being in the right place at the right time".
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:56 pm

Everyone knows that Kazuichi survived because he's the author avatar of the scenario writer, Kazutaka.

The staff pretty much said as such.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:15 pm

ZekeFreek wrote:Everyone knows that Kazuichi survived because he's the author avatar of the scenario writer, Kazutaka.

The staff pretty much said as such.

grand...
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