MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here-)

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:40 am

I don't think I'd call the first game particularly tame. :lol: I mean, Sadie's dialogue alone... and that's not counting the crapload of hot spring scenes and stuff. The first game was edited to the minimal extent that they felt was necessary to release it, and that's what looks to be happening here, too.

I'm very serious about the part you quoted, though. If people don't buy something, it tells a business there's no market for it. If there's no market, they won't release anything like that in the future because it doesn't make a profit for them. If people do buy the game, they signal that there is a market... and so companies will try harder to get more of it. Boycotting the game does not equal "noble protest against censorship" to a business. It means "don't even bother trying", with the end result of only getting tamer stuff in the future, because the company will avoid anything with even the potential need for edits. Boycotts do not help, and that's what I'm hoping to make clear here. ^^



@Coreven: True, they're all drawings. However, it's an unavoidable fact that some rating boards and societies object to the notion of "a system that rewards players for their actions by sexually objectifying little girls". Older, more mature characters can get away with that sort of thing. Little ones... not so much. You may not object to that sort of thing, but you should recognize there are those who will - including the companies releasing the content, who may not be comfortable with the sort of statement that such a system makes about them. Again, though, NISA isn't fanservice-shy, even for younger characters (and they have a long history proving this). The minigame is just a bit too far for what they're willing to do. ^^
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby vampko » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:45 am

If you really want those CGs...I'll make it a mission to find them all, and upload them somewhere and then let everyone enjoy them in all their mediocre glory

Rednal wrote:If you object to Mugen Souls Z because of minor content edits, then what you're actually saying is "Please do not even try to bring over objectionable content and stick to tame material". If you want more fanservice, buying the game helps more than boycotting it. ^^ Still a little counter-intuitive, but it's important to look at this from the perspective of a business (which is very different from the perspective of a consumer).

This is exactly the situation here. I can't force anyone to buy this game, but I can try as hard as possible to convince them that it's worth buying and that holding onto such fragile ideals is pointless.
JaxTH wrote:This makes no sense.

The first game was edited so it could become "tame material". Then everyone proceeded to not buy it.

And look how long it took NISA to decide there was even a market for a game like this...

People muck this up again, and NISA'll probably wait 10 years before they release anything of the sort again..
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:07 am

Rednal wrote:I'm very serious about the part you quoted, though. If people don't buy something, it tells a business there's no market for it. If there's no market, they won't release anything like that in the future because it doesn't make a profit for them. If people do buy the game, they signal that there is a market... and so companies will try harder to get more of it.


This is false. What you're saying would be true if we were talking about Activision, or some other giant that doesn't have a close relationship with their fans. But NISA does. If the game bombs again, it doesn't tell them that there's no market for it; they know exactly why it bombed, and they know that it was their actions that drove that market away.

Boycotting the game does not equal "noble protest against censorship" to a business. It means "don't even bother trying",


Except in cases like this, when the majority of the market has a massive issue with censorship of any kind, and told NISA exactly this the last time.

with the end result of only getting tamer stuff in the future, because the company will avoid anything with even the potential need for edits. Boycotts do not help, and that's what I'm hoping to make clear here. ^^


I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with this. If NISA avoids anything that might need edits, leaving those properties for other companies that are actually willing to release them uncut, the people boycotting only benefit. So it does in fact help.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Coreven » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:13 am

Rednal wrote:The minigame is just a bit too far for what they're willing to do. ^^
Then don't do it. Don't localize a game if you don't have the balls to do it properly. And god damn, they should at least try to get the game rated uncensored, and if it doesn't succeed, keep their their (potential) fanbase updated about it. That's understandable. That's what they need to learn.

vampko wrote:If you really want those CGs...I'll make it a mission to find them all, and upload them somewhere and then let everyone enjoy them in all their mediocre glory
Whether or not the CGs are available is not the issue here. It's that they aren't in the game.
vampko wrote:People muck this up again, and NISA'll probably wait 10 years before they release anything of the sort again..
Good, hope they wait forever. I'd love to see NISA stick to tamer stuff, 'cause then they cannot fuck it up.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:21 am

*Ahem*

As mentioned in the first post, I'd appreciate it if you would be minimally civil and avoid swearing and personal attacks. ^^ I won't object to your feelings or views, but I don't think words like that are appropriate for this discussion.

Anyway, getting a game rated is a fairly expensive process, costing thousands of dollars, and they'd probably have to get it rated in each area because of different standards. That's... prohibitively expensive for a niche company. It's not that they wouldn't like to, but their budgets just don't have that much wiggle room. If their games sold very well, then they might actually have the budgets to try things like that - again, boycotting the game is counter-productive. If they don't have the money to try something, then they're not going to do it. If they do have lots of extra money, the chances of being able to do what you're asking go up quite noticeably. If you really want things like that to happen, vote with your wallet and help give them the funding they need. It's more likely to result in you getting what you want than refusing to buy their products is. ^^
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:27 am

Rednal wrote:*Ahem*
If they don't have the money to try something, then they're not going to do it. If they do have lots of extra money, the chances of being able to do what you're asking go up quite noticeably. If you really want things like that to happen, vote with your wallet and help give them the funding they need. It's more likely to result in you getting what you want than refusing to buy their products is. ^^


It's not my job to buy a product that I don't want, in hopes that they'll release something that I do. It's their job to release a product I want in the first place. Using "vote with your wallet" in this context is pretty dumb; all I would be doing is supporting the cuts, not making some nebulous progress to an uncut game.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby NakedPlum » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:29 am

Another game to ignore and tell the most people as possible to not support it.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby killer9i1994 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:29 am

vampko wrote:If you really want those CGs...I'll make it a mission to find them all, and upload them somewhere and then let everyone enjoy them in all their mediocre glory

I actually wouldn't mind that vampko, if you don't mind.

I'm kind of on the fence here. I can see how buying a game will support NISA and give them more money to bring new games over, but I don't see how that affects content being removed. If people buy it, it just shows that people are okay with the content being removed and will buy NISA's products either way. Which means NISA will continue to censor products as they see fit. Now while I guess I can understand how the minigame itself is removed, I don't get why the CGs are. I mean hell, look at Neptunia. There are three CGs that come to mind about hot springs or characters taking a bath together. Those never got censored and they included underage girls (Rom and Ram suggestively eating a banana in the bath), so what's the deal with these?
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:32 am

May I ask why you feel you would be "supporting the cuts"? I've seen this comment from quite a few people, but as I explained earlier, I don't think that's what you'd actually be doing. Not from the company's perspective, anyway, regardless of what you may actually be intending. I mean, do you actually feel that what happens now has no effect on future decisions?


@Killer: These are interactive. It's not very good interaction, but things the player gets personally involved with tends to be rated more strongly. Also, some of the characters are much younger-looking than the twins. And yes, NISA will probably continue to edit as they see fit... but many people seem to miss the detail that "as they see fit" means "as little as possible while still being able to release it". NISA doesn't really seem to like editing content out, and goodness knows they're aware their customers don't like it. It doesn't really benefit them to do it more than they absolutely have to.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby killer9i1994 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:44 am

Rednal wrote:@Killer: These are interactive. It's not very good interaction, but things the player gets personally involved with tends to be rated more strongly. Also, some of the characters are much younger-looking than the twins. And yes, NISA will probably continue to edit as they see fit... but many people seem to miss the detail that "as they see fit" means "as little as possible while still being able to release it". NISA doesn't really seem to like editing content out, and goodness knows they're aware their customers don't like it. It doesn't really benefit them to do it more than they absolutely have to.

You're saying the CGs themselves are interactive as well? You aren't just talking about the bathing minigame itself? It was to my knowledge that CGs were mostly still images. The only interaction I can remember with CGs is that in Neptunia you could press a button to make characters' breasts bounce. If that's the interaction you are talking about then I still don't see the problem.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:45 am

Rednal wrote:May I ask why you feel you would be "supporting the cuts"? I've seen this comment from quite a few people, but as I explained earlier, I don't think that's what you'd actually be doing. Not from the company's perspective, anyway, regardless of what you may actually be intending. I mean, do you actually feel that what happens now has no effect on future decisions?


If the game sells with the cuts, they have exactly zero reason to reconsider cutting content. As such, buying the game is directly supporting the cuts. NISA isn't a huge company like Capcom; if the game doesn't sell, they know exactly why. If the effect on future decisions is either A) they stop cutting content or B) stop picking up games that they personally decide content needs to be cut from, I benefit.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:53 am

I mean that the minigame itself is interactive, and you do interact with the CGs there. More than making the boobs bounce, you are wiping away the soap and, in MSZ, turning their outfits skin-colored. The player is actively taking a role in sexually objectifying the characters, and as I mentioned, player interaction tends to be rated more strongly than passively watching something. Regardless of the type of content it is. I'm fairly certain that the player interaction part is the problem. Most of the CGs really aren't that bad - certainly not worse than some of the hot springs (read: totally naked, minimal steam) or capture (gooey substance) images.

I know that a lot of people still don't see the problem with the minigame and would prefer to have it unedited. XD Again, they do have something of a point - even in the minigame, I'd say that most of the characters aren't a problem (in the US; Europe's a little harsher on this stuff, apparently). I mean, we had Agarest 2, didn't we? It's just that the game goes a bit too far, with characters a [i]bit[/i ]too young, for current society to be willing to accept.



EDIT:

@Moulala: Hmm... well, I can see why you might feel that interpretation of your actions would be reasonable. I still can't quite agree, though - I think most people who care about content getting removed would prefer to have games be unedited and free to be whatever they want. If companies only localize tame things, then boundaries will never be pushed and interesting ideas never explored, which helps to stagnate the industry and make gaming as a whole less interesting. If you enjoy video games, that's a bad result for you, right?
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby vampko » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:56 am

moulala2 wrote:stop picking up games that they personally decide content needs to be cut from

That no one else will pick up

So that just means less games being localized. No one benefits.

Might I make a possible suggestion as to why the CGs are being removed too? I am obviously not an IF employee, nor affiliated with NISA in any way other than being a customer like anyone else here, but I have a (minimal) knowledge of programming, and the ability to reason things through. Again, this is just one possibility, and is in no way an official answer or any sort of genius reasoning or whatever.

Now, could CH have programmed the CGs to be linked to the hot springs game in such a way that it would be troublesome to remove the game but not the CGs? And that be the reason the CGs aren't being included?

killer9i1994 wrote:I actually wouldn't mind that vampko, if you don't mind.

Okay, I'll get to work on that. I'm sure they're out there, and probably won't be too hard to find now that the game has been out for a while.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby killer9i1994 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:01 am

Ah, well then I think I misunderstood. I thought that there were separate CG images you could just unlock in a gallery or something.
vampko wrote:Now, could CH have programmed the CGs to be linked to the hot springs game in such a way that it would be troublesome to remove the game but not the CGs? And that be the reason the CGs aren't being included?

I can see how that may be a possibility, but still I would think it would be more difficult to remove the whole minigame and CGs than to just remove the ability to interact with the CGs. I can't claim to have any knowledge of programming either though, so I'm just speculating.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:06 am

Rednal wrote:EDIT:

@Moulala: Hmm... well, I can see why you might feel that interpretation of your actions would be reasonable. I still can't quite agree, though - I think most people who care about content getting removed would prefer to have games be unedited and free to be whatever they want. If companies only localize tame things, then boundaries will never be pushed and interesting ideas never explored, which helps to stagnate the industry and make gaming as a whole less interesting. If you enjoy video games, that's a bad result for you, right?


Buying games with cut content does nothing to push boundaries; it encourages companies to take the safe route, and scale games back to the current boundaries. If MSZ sells after they've cut content, it doesn't tell them "oh hey, maybe we should take a risk this time!" It says "we don't have to take risks in order to make money, so let's play it safe!" You keep talking about companies only localizing "tame" things, but scaling everything back to an acceptable level of "tame" is exactly the same effect.

vampko wrote:That no one else will pick up

So that just means less games being localized. No one benefits.


Based on what? CH games are pretty popular in this niche, I doubt they'd have trouble finding another partner.


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