MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here-)

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Coreven » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:09 am

Rednal wrote:I mean that the minigame itself is interactive, and you do interact with the CGs there.
But the CGs aren't interactive, and thus your reasoning doesn't cover why they're still being censored instead of, let's say, only cutting out the minigame and leaving the CGs in.

vampko wrote:That no one else will pick up

So that just means less games being localized. No one benefits.
And you know this for 100% certain, because..? Even so, it'd be better. Playing the original version would reward you through the preparations needed for comprehending it.
Now, could CH have programmed the CGs to be linked to the hot springs game in such a way that it would be troublesome to remove the game but not the CGs? And that be the reason the CGs aren't being included?
That sounds like grasping at straws.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby vampko » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:27 am

Coreven wrote:That sounds like grasping at straws.

Not really. Compile Heart aren't exactly known for their masterful planning when programming things >.>

Coreven wrote: Even so, it'd be better. Playing the original version would reward you through the preparations needed for comprehending it.

It'd be better that less games release outside of Japan..? You can import and play games in Japanese if you want regardless of whether something has been localized. It doesn't make it "better" because you don't have the choice to buy it localized. Especially with the higher costs.
moulala2 wrote:Based on what? CH games are pretty popular in this niche, I doubt they'd have trouble finding another partner

You'd be surprised how hard it is to find companies willing to pick up games that have highly suggestive content with characters that appear like little girls.

Plus, the other localization companies have their hands full with other things. Aksys does a lot of otome games, Xseed does a little of everything, and Atlus even strays into Western publishing often.

There are only so many companies localizing stuff out there. It's not like there's just a limitless supply of them. And they don't have limitless time either.

NISA's pretty amazing in that they've stayed true to their niche fans for so long. Every other company is already catering to the masses while throwing a bone to the niche ever so often. With NISA you get pretty much regular meals. Take them out of the equation, and you can say goodbye to A LOT
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:36 am

@Moulala: Again, I can see where you're coming from. ^^ But I'm not sure you're looking at the whole picture. The fact that some stuff is edited doesn't mean all of it is. Right now, it's not really a question of pushing things or not. It's a question of how much they're pushing the boundaries with any given game. I think the minigame is too much, too quickly, but that doesn't mean we're not still headed in that direction.




And... yeah, CH's programming isn't really the best. XD; MSZ is quite an improvement over the first, though. Especially the loading times. Good gosh I love the improved loading times.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby vampko » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:39 am

Rednal wrote:@Moulala: Again, I can see where you're coming from. ^^ But I'm not sure you're looking at the whole picture. The fact that some stuff is edited doesn't mean all of it is. Right now, it's not really a question of pushing things or not. It's a question of how much they're pushing the boundaries with any given game. I think the minigame is too much, too quickly, but that doesn't mean we're not still headed in that direction.




And... yeah, CH's programming isn't really the best. XD; MSZ is quite an improvement over the first, though. Especially the loading times. Good gosh I love the improved loading times.

lol yeah
I turned on the original to check something for someone, and my gosh...I had forgotten how bad it was.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby ArmedDragoon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:41 am

If you go to the Atlus forums you occasionally see some people complain that Atlus USA doesn't localize as many off the wall titles as they used to. That duty has pretty much been relegated to NISA. Aksys and Xseed have a willingness to do the same, but they're much smaller. Telling NISA that you don't want these games from them means that you pretty much wouldn't get them at all, period.

And let's be honest with each other, the last word to use when describing Compile Heart is "popular", at least in the sense where other companies take them seriously, say their name in a place like Neogaf and you've convinced a lot of people to not even bother right away.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:47 am

Hey, at least they're working on it. XD They have an international marketing division and everything now, courtesy of IFI! If game sales are a decent judge, they're small but growing. ^^
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:50 am

Rednal wrote:@Moulala: Again, I can see where you're coming from. ^^ But I'm not sure you're looking at the whole picture. The fact that some stuff is edited doesn't mean all of it is. Right now, it's not really a question of pushing things or not. It's a question of how much they're pushing the boundaries with any given game. I think the minigame is too much, too quickly, but that doesn't mean we're not still headed in that direction.


What "whole picture?" If NISA knows they can get away with cuts, they'll do it every time. Full stop. Letting edits slide doesn't push any boundaries; it etches the current boundaries into stone, because they have absolutely no reason to cross it; the issues that make them think cutting is a good idea will still be there. From a "whole picture" perspective, it also encourages other companies to make cuts when they see NISA getting away with it; this is regression, not progression.

ArmedDragoon wrote:If you go to the Atlus forums you occasionally see some people complain that Atlus USA doesn't localize as many off the wall titles as they used to. That duty has pretty much been relegated to NISA. Aksys and Xseed have a willingness to do the same, but they're much smaller. Telling NISA that you don't want these games from them means that you pretty much wouldn't get them at all, period.


I'm not telling them I don't want these games from them; I'm telling them I don't want cut games from them. If they don't give me that, well, I'm not getting what I want either way, so them stopping these localizations doesn't affect me at all.

And let's be honest with each other, the last word to use when describing Compile Heart is "popular", at least in the sense where other companies take them seriously, say their name in a place like Neogaf and you've convinced a lot of people to not even bother right away.


Popular in this niche; CH games sell pretty well for what they are, it's not even a gamble for the localizing company.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:06 am

*Scratches head* I have to admit that I really don't understand this view or where it comes from. ^^; Why do you think that NISA wants to make cuts, or will do it to every game, every time? I mean, yes, they'll do anything they have to in order to make sure a product can be released. That's, er, completely normal and standard business practice that happens pretty much everywhere in every single industry. A product that can't be released can't make any money, after all, so that's sort of a minimum level of qualification. Outside of that, though... I just can't see how a company making a clear effort to edit as little as possible keeps getting accused of wanting to do edits and do them more in the future. It's completely contrary to what they've actually done.

Everything I've seen is the minimal amount of editing they can get away with while still being able to release the game. Editing content out of a game costs time and money to do. Worse, the more it's done, the more unhappy people tend to get - most gamers do not like edited content very much. It's counter-productive to do it any more than it absolutely has to be done, and I think NISA's actions demonstrate that they are very aware of this detail. It will not help the company to edit things "every time", especially because most of their games don't need edits at all. This is one very specific case, for a very specific reason, not a trend or change in company direction.

When I hear this position, it just sounds like "I think the company will spend lots of money doing something they know will make them sell fewer games and fail as a company". That's... suicidal for a business to do. I just can't understand why people seem to think they're like that, instead of considering how limited this really is. ^^; Maybe it's because gaming companies only release a few products a year, so it seems bigger and more common than it is...? What do you think?
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby moulala2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:19 am

Rednal wrote:*Scratches head* I have to admit that I really don't understand this view or where it comes from. ^^; Why do you think that NISA wants to make cuts, or will do it to every game, every time?


Because making cuts lets them avoid any PR backlash, and doing it is cheap.

I mean, yes, they'll do anything they have to in order to make sure a product can be released. That's, er, completely normal and standard business practice that happens pretty much everywhere in every single industry. A product that can't be released can't make any money, after all, so that's sort of a minimum level of qualification. Outside of that, though... I just can't see how a company making a clear effort to edit as little as possible keeps getting accused of wanting to do edits and do them more in the future. It's completely contrary to what they've actually done.


Unless there was some sort of ESRB stipulation that required them to censor it, which to my knowledge there isn't, then it's not necessary to ensure it's released. That being the case, it's not "as little as possible," it is more than that.

Everything I've seen is the minimal amount of editing they can get away with while still being able to release the game. Editing content out of a game costs time and money to do. Worse, the more it's done, the more unhappy people tend to get - most gamers do not like edited content very much. It's counter-productive to do it any more than it absolutely has to be done, and I think NISA's actions demonstrate that they are very aware of this detail. It will not help the company to edit things "every time", especially because most of their games don't need edits at all. This is one very specific case, for a very specific reason, not a trend or change in company direction.


Give a man an inch, and he'll take a mile.If they know they can make cuts without any sort of financial backlash, they'll be more and more likely to do it. It's worth noting here that chopping out content will save them money from having to translate and voice those parts, so it won't actually cost them anything. Note that when I said every time, I didn't mean every game, but every borderline case.

When I hear this position, it just sounds like "I think the company will spend lots of money doing something they know will make them sell fewer games and fail as a company". That's... suicidal for a business to do. I just can't understand why people seem to think they're like that, instead of considering how limited this really is. ^^; Maybe it's because gaming companies only release a few products a year, so it seems bigger and more common than it is...? What do you think?


You say that, and yet here we are; MS bombed because of edits, and they're doing it again.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:32 am

Actually, there is a reason, but not from the ESRB - the ESRB is strictly a ratings board and has no control over the content of the games being reviewed. They cannot force a change, only rate things, and they've repeatedly demonstrated that they are very fair and open-minded. I quite like the ESRB.

Sony is an entirely different matter. They have full control over all content released on their consoles, and are entirely capable of refusing to allow something to be published - which they can and will do if something is rated AO. That's a problem. Also, most physical retailers won't stock AO games at all. That rating is pretty much a death sentence for a console game, and NISA feels that the bathing minigame would get the AO rating (and probably the international equivalent from other boards). I freely admit that they may not be correct about what rating the minigame would get, but they're the gaming company that regularly submits fanservice-y stuff, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. They know much more than I do about the whole process.

As for the saving money by cutting content... *Ahem* At least in this particular case, there's not a lot of money to be saved by editing content. The voicework is minimal (barely a footnote), and it's an exceedingly simple game. There's not even a scoreboard to translate. I would bet a lot of money that removing it (and testing to be sure everything still works afterward) is harder and more expensive than leaving it in. That may not be true in every possible case, but it is here. The minigame is very simple indeed. Heck, it isn't even timed. I'm not kidding when I say people won't be missing much; I've played amateur flash games that were more complicated and more fun.

People get so wrapped up in this one issue that they tend to ignore everything else, which really is a shame. ^^; I mean, the games are actually quite fun. It's NISA-style stuff right to the core, and I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a series so much.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Teddie Sage » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:34 am

NakedPlum wrote:Another game to ignore and tell the most people as possible to not support it.


Just because of some boring mini-game and random CGs that are too pervert for our rating system? Wow, your loss.We won't miss you.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:39 am

Now, now, Teddie Sage, please be nice. ^^ People are certainly entitled to have opinions on this subject and decide that a fun, quirky, content-rich, humorous game isn't for them because they won't have access to one part of it. That really is important to some people, and we should both understand and respect that.
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Teddie Sage » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:44 am

Just really tired of seeing people crying over things like that. We're Canadians, Europeans or Americans mostly here. Those things being removed from the localization versions are frown upon in our countries. Doesn't take a genius to know that. Japan is more open minded when it comes to those kind of games or cartoons, but in our countries, those laws are more strict.

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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby Rednal » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:46 am

In my experience, society's ideas about what's appropriate don't seem to matter very much to gamers. :lol: Especially for games with more mature content, where many seem to feel "I'm an adult, I can decide what's appropriate, so don't try to tell me what's good for me and what isn't". This is an understandable point of view, I think, but harsh attitudes generally aren't very productive. We saw enough of that last time. ^^
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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Postby JaxTH » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:48 am

Teddie Sage wrote:Just because of some boring mini-game and random CGs that are too pervert for our rating system? Wow, your loss.We won't miss you.

So you've played the game as well then?


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