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Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:58 am
by Rednal
*Chuckles*

"Journalist" implies I do it professionally, or at least seriously. Actually, I just do the occasional interview for fun, so I wouldn't go as far as claiming to be a true gaming journalist.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:38 am
by Harakiri Sunshine
Rednal wrote:*Chuckles*

"Journalist" implies I do it professionally, or at least seriously. Actually, I just do the occasional interview for fun, so I wouldn't go as far as claiming to be a true gaming journalist.


Game journalism isn't professional journalism, it's mostly marketing or biased rants.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:09 pm
by animeniac
Houk wrote:
Touka wrote:NISA can't even QA their games, all they can do is bullshit people.


All you've done on our forums is rant and complain like a spoiled little kid. You've made it clear you have no intention of contributing to this forum in a positive way. Everyone is free to disagree, as long as you're civil and respectful. You've been neither, and you're no longer welcome here.

I'm going to leave this user's post as an example of how not to express your opinion here.


Thank you Houk, for calling out that person on their shenanigans. I think your explanation was excellent and I completely agree with it. I love NISA regardless of any past and current mistakes, if it weren't for them I never would have discovered all the games I now consider my favorites. Sure, those games may have been toned down a bit, but in my opinion its better than nothing at all. I would rather understand what I'm playing and enjoy it rather than stumble through it and get to see a few juicy bits. I can always go play some eroge if I really want to see all that. LOL :P

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:26 pm
by animeniac
Seventh wrote:For starters, no one else was even willing to do Monpiece - XSEED included. Think about that for a minute before you start praising them and trashing IFI. Even if it was their personal standard (rather than them conforming to the culture they were releasing the game for - the culture that likely led to no one else being willing to pick it up in the first place), they brought it over when no one else was willing to do so, and even if they did censor some of the game, they did leave most of it alone.

And who's standard do you think IFI and NISA are conforming to here? IFI is a branch of IF/CH for crying out loud - wouldn't their standards just be the standards of the company who made the game in the first place?

Now I'm not even saying I agree with the censorship (my posts in that thread should be evidence to this), but these game companies do not control the climate they're releasing the games in. So if they feel they need to remove certain things to be able to get a game out at all, then that's the climate's fault for forcing the companies into that situation, not the company's. If you want to get angry, get angry at the people who will trash games they never intended to play in the first place - the people who influence these kinds of decisions and make the companies feel as though their hand has been forced.

I mean, do you think IFI really wanted to cut out content and face all that backlash? Really? I'm still convinced they put IFI together solely so they could push games like Monpiece - games no one else was willing to localize - in the first place. That shows more dedication to the West than a lot of other Japanese companies and you can't deny them the credit they deserve for that. And to imply Monpiece requires no Japanese knowledge? That's ridiculous - and simply false. Sure, you could buy it off a website without needing to speak Japanese, and you could "play" the game in Japanese - many of us have done this, I've even done it many times. But that's not the same thing as having a game in a language you actually understand and you know it.

Also, the thing that I'm not liking about all these XSEED comparisons is that, while they are absolutely an awesome company, they also haven't taken on games that have the kind of content that's getting removed. Senran Kagura's characters are all characters you can get away with taking away the ages of - even the less-than-endowed ones are still clearly older than, say, certain Mugen Souls characters look. So if it simply is a matter of age (which would then explain why Western games can also get away with sex scenes), then shouldn't you be berating XSEED for avoiding the games where this is an issue so they don't have to deal with it, rather than faulting the companies who are taking that risk in the first place?

And again, I don't even agree with some of the censorship being discussed here - particularly Monpiece's, considering how much they left in the game. Even so, this kind of comment is just ridiculous.


You sir, are an awesome dood! I couldn't have said any of that any better or maybe even at all. LOL :D

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:04 pm
by Tohka
NISA fanboi!

animeniac wrote:I can always go play some eroge if I really want to see all that. LOL :P

Implying that it's the same as an eroge? If you don't like the content of a game, then that game is obviously not intended for you. Keep your grubby censoring hands of the game and go play a different one.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:12 pm
by Screwy
Also, Lemme paste the ever-infamous Tom quote from MonMon's issue:
"Note that this is all me talking -- I do not represent XSEED as a whole here.

Just wanted to chime in to say that I am 100% opposed to IFI's decision to censor this game, and if I had any interest in buying it before, I definitely wouldn't now. In my opinion, censorship is the single biggest problem afflicting the video game industry today, and while it's easy to say "oh, it's lolis, so it's no big deal," the problem with that is... well, it sets a precedent. To quote myself from the Hardcore Gaming 101 forums:

I've seen first-hand how casually people bring up the concept of censoring Japanese games. And not just from us with Senran Kagura, but from other companies we've spoken with as well -- management types look at a game with risque elements, and I swear the first words out of their mouths are, "How can we censor this to make it more palatable to a larger audience?"

When I've argued in favor of NOT censoring games with these types of people, their defense is usually, "Well, X game did it, so it's not like there's no precedent!" Upon suggesting we not remove the ages from Senran Kagura Burst, for example, I was immediately accosted with statements such as, "Well, Otomedius did it!" I even heard some people say things like, "Well, Mugen Souls had much worse censorship than that, so it's not like we're going too far or anything."

The more examples of this that the industry provides -- the more options we give management types to use for filling the blanks in statements like, "Well, ____ did it!" or, "Well, ____ had worse censorship than that!" -- the harder it will be to convince anyone to leave games intact in the future. No one wants to be the first person ever to censor a game in a specific manner, but if someone else has done it before, or if someone has done something even worse, the floodgates are open. And the more often people do it, the wider those floodgates get, until that form of censorship becomes so commonplace as to be expected. And once that happens, it could take years to undo the damage -- if it can even be undone at all!

Censorship laws are the biggest problems out there, but to me, it's a worse personal offense for a company to voluntary censor something. Obeying an unjust law is one thing, but going above and beyond that law just... seems akin to being a scab during a strike or something. It's just plain uncool, and really does create a culture of censorship. Anytime something like that becomes normalized, the art suffers.

If we don't want to see something we really care about get censored in the future, we need to make sure we stick up for the things we DON'T care about (or even actively want to SEE censored) now. Any censorship, big or small, inexplicable or requested, creates a very, very dangerous slope.

And in cases like this, there's simply no excuse to have censored anything. I can tell you right now, the censored images would not have boosted the ESRB rating beyond an M, and only *possibly* would've boosted the PEGI rating to a 16 instead of a 12. But if there were any concerns... no problem! The ESRB and PEGI alike are totally cool with publishers emailing them about concerns like this. IFI could've easily emailed them all the cut pictures and asked them, "Would these put our game at risk of being unclassified or receiving too high a rating to be marketed?" And if either ratings board said yes, THEN they could've censored the images and told people, "ESRB/PEGI indicated that the game would likely be unsalable if these images were to remain, so we decided to remove them in favor of reaching a wider audience."

Instead, IFI chose to voluntary censor the images based on marketing concerns based on personal moral judgments. And that, to me, is not something a purveyor of art should do. It may make sense from a business standpoint, and even from a moral standpoint... but in my opinion, it does not make sense from an ethical standpoint.

Once again, though, this is just my opinion -- and once again, it's an opinion not shared by my coworkers and not representational of XSEED's stance as a whole, so please don't think I speak for the company here. But I do feel that this is a much bigger issue, at its core, than simply "IFI censored some mostly-naked lolis and now pervs are angry at them for it." And I do feel it's an issue that needs to be looked at from a distance. Whether you approve of Monster Monpiece's depiction of women or lolis, that's part of the game, and IFI signed up to publish the game. They knew what they were getting into, and they should've stuck to their guns. Maybe they'd get some negative backlash... but let's face it, they're going to get negative backlash anyway by virtue of the game being what it is. At least if they left it uncensored, they'd have a leg to stand on in defending themselves.

-Tom "

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:33 pm
by animeniac
Tohka wrote:NISA fanboi!

animeniac wrote:I can always go play some eroge if I really want to see all that. LOL :P

Implying that it's the same as an eroge? If you don't like the content of a game, then that game is obviously not intended for you. Keep your grubby censoring hands of the game and go play a different one.


LOL! Apparently you took my whole comment out of context. Basically I am saying that while I do dislike censorship and would love to have the game etc in its original form, sometimes that just isn't possible. All I really care is that I can enjoy the game. If I don't notice that anything has been removed and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game, well then ignorance is bliss. Sure I would have liked to see the loli-rubbing in Mugen Souls, but did it detract my enjoyment of the game? No, it did not.

Does anyone have any idea how much it even costs to localize a game? First and foremost NISA is a business, they need to make money to stay in business. Yes, its important to please the fans; Yes, its important to keep changes to a minimum; but sometimes they need to do what is in the best interest for their BUSINESS. If they went under none of these games or anything wouldn't see the light of day here save for the trickle of info from the internet etc.

These really are just my opinions and nobody has to like them or agree with them. I only mentioned eroge because it was a ridiculous statement regarding a ridiculous topic. I don't play games just for the fanservice, I merely see it as an added bonus, and if its not there? Then oh well. I still enjoy the games anyway for their other merits like I don't know, gameplay maybe? If I want excessive fanservice then I will go watch a naughty anime like To Love Ru or something, and if I want more than that, well its why I made the eroge comment.

Bottom line people, think of the bigger picture. Take a step back and think "Am I only playing this for the fan service?" If so, you may have bigger problems than you think.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:37 pm
by Seventh
@Screwy
The problem with that is not only does he start out saying he's not speaking as a representative of XSEED (because if he had, there would have been a lot of implications I imagine), but as he isn't one of NISA or IFI in any way, I don't think his quote should be used as if it's any more valid than simply another poster on a forum - and while I happen to agree with the sentiment, seeing him get treated like some kinda of anti-censorship messiah is kind of annoying when he has no place talking even from an experience standpoint considering that, assuming age is the issue in these cases as we've been told, XSEED has yet to actually even try bringing over something that would be an issue like the censored games in question in the first place.

That said, I do absolutely agree with his points about purveying art and ethics and morals and all, but the way his words are being used is starting to do more harm than good, I think.

@animeniac
Now this I completely disagree with. "Oh, you can get this part of the game in another media, so it's fine being removed."?

Fine, then let's get rid of the story since we can read books and watch TV while we're at it. And let's get rid of music since you can just listen to your iDevice for that - it saves businesses money to use towards making/localizing the game if they don't need to put in music! Oh hey, man, let's cut out voices too. You can just talk to people if you want to hear conversations after all.

In other words? That's horse wieners.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:38 pm
by Rednal
Screwy wrote:IFI could've easily emailed them all the cut pictures and asked them, "Would these put our game at risk of being unclassified or receiving too high a rating to be marketed?" And if either ratings board said yes, THEN they could've censored the images and told people, "ESRB/PEGI indicated that the game would likely be unsalable if these images were to remain, so we decided to remove them in favor of reaching a wider audience."


I just wanted to point out that this... is pretty much exactly what NISA said happened for this game. They asked, they got the "Yeah, it'd likely be unsalable" response, and changes happened. So even Tom's post there is basically agreeing with NISA's decision.

Not necessarily the "wider audience" bit (although any audience bigger than zero is something any company would want...), but the rest of it's pretty much dead-on.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:40 pm
by Tohka
animeniac wrote:
Tohka wrote:NISA fanboi!

animeniac wrote:I can always go play some eroge if I really want to see all that. LOL :P

Implying that it's the same as an eroge? If you don't like the content of a game, then that game is obviously not intended for you. Keep your grubby censoring hands of the game and go play a different one.


Basically I am saying that while I do dislike censorship and would love to have the game etc in its original form, sometimes that just isn't possible.

It was entirely possible, but then the prudish NISA company came and said we couldn't have it.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:42 pm
by neonie
Rednal wrote:They asked, they got the "Yeah, it'd likely be unsalable" response,


I don't get into these arguments too much, but because you fanboy a little too much rednal, I would like to point out:

"They asked": Allegedly. If you take their word for it.

And it getting an AO rating was also "allegedly". Meaning even if they asked the ESRB, there is no proof this sort of game would have received an AO rating. No ones ever taken that risk. So until it's proven 100% this game can't get through without an AO rating, the idea is "allegedly"

What they received as "maybe". Houk has stated "maybe" is a risk they won't take.

But it also means "maybe" it would have gotten through fine, and we'd see three less censored games if risk was taken.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:45 pm
by Tohka
The AO rating is the go to "argument" around here, it's quite sad.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:56 pm
by Rednal
Honestly? I don't think any video game company wants to annoy a ratings board that can slap them with literal million-dollar fines, especially when that company is A) Niche, and B) Doesn't have huge amounts of money to throw around. Flat-out lying about talking to the ESRB is a bad idea - and let's not forget our completely unrelated source up there saying that the ESRB is totally open to having those questions asked and is happy to work with companies on stuff like that.

...

I really need to see about scheduling that interview with them. Maybe people will believe that NISA actually asked and got that response if the ESRB says it happened... though at this rate, I'm kind of doubting that any level of proof would suffice... oh, well. At least I can say I tried.

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:59 pm
by neonie
Rednal wrote:Honestly? I don't think any video game company wants to annoy a ratings board that can slap them with literal million-dollar fines


Million dollar fines for what exactly? I don't think them getting an AO rating and then submitting would be a literal million-dollar fine...

Re: MSZ Content Editing Discussion Thread (Please Post -Here

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:59 pm
by animeniac
Seventh wrote:@animeniac
Now this I completely disagree with. "Oh, you can get this part of the game in another media, so it's fine being removed."?

Fine, then let's get rid of the story since we can read books and watch TV while we're at it. And let's get rid of music since you can just listen to your iDevice for that - it saves businesses money to use towards making/localizing the game if they don't need to put in music! Oh hey, man, let's cut out voices too. You can just talk to people if you want to hear conversations after all.

In other words? That's horse wieners.


LOL! You're right, but that's not exactly what I meant. I'm just saying while its unfortunate that the content has been removed, it hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of the game is all. Hey I love fanservice as much as the next guy, its why I like what I like even. Horse wieners indeed, It's just futile fighting against something like this you know? They're going do it and we can't really stop it, at best maybe alter it. I'm just glad I get to even enjoy the games at all.