Puella Magi Madoka Magica

[Seventh]

I mean, some things in the show disappointed me, too, but I don't quite have the time or motivation to create a dozen page essay about it. I just think you guys seemed a little *too* upset.

If you like something, you want to talk about it. :U Doesn't seem that odd to me, and that really wasn't that long anyway.

I'm not, I personally find the series to have a great end. I just want all this talk about how some people hate the ending. I mean, would you rather have Madoka become a witch again for the third time and Homura doesn't go back in time this time so everyone dies like they did in "The End of Evangelion"? Because that is the impression I am getting here with these people's complaints.

There are a variety of options. There's the "Madoka doesn't become a PM at all", there's the "Homura dies and we don't get to see what happens", there's "it ends with Homura looping again", there's "Homura dies, Madoka becomes meguka, defeats Walpurgis, and the cycle continues" and various variations thereof, and so on. There are really COUNTLESS things that could have been done that just make more sense than the trashy mess that was thrown at us. There's even the "Homura becomes a witch and Madoka must fight her" conclusion, which I never even considered until now, just more the much more obvious "Homura's witch form was Walpurgis Night all along".

I've never even touched Eva, surprisingly, but all in all, I'll still say that Madoka did a bad job with the ending.

[myskaros]

I thought the general opinion was that the Madoka end was well done? I personally had no problem with it, I haven't finished Eva so I don't know how I'd feel about a "absolute despair" ending vs. "true happiness" or "at least there's closure" or even "no closure for you!" endings (I haven't seen an anime with a despair ending yet).

Of the ending options Seventh presented, I'd have to say I prefer the actual ending to any of those. However, I'm also what I call a "gullible audience;" I have a pretty good suspension of belief when the material is at least internally consistent. So, the ending used for the anime, since it wasn't completely out of left field, was good for me and other endings, which were not used, wouldn't be able to trump it, in my mind.

[SjSharks182]

To start, I'd like to say I had no idea who Urobuchi was before Madoka.

I will concede with Madoka's wish being an asspull from hell. Although, I disagree with Homura's fate. As Vampko said, she had to suffer a lot, and to a much greater extent than all of the other characters. All of the tragedies stayed with her, and built up encumbering her with crippling emotions and sanity. She had to kill the person she was trying to save for fucks sake. On the entire "be careful what you wish for" entropy thing, Homura's wish never even actualized. She did not save Madoka, and once that endeavor was halted, Homura was better off.

I don't have ample time to empty my brain here, so I apologize if I was unable to convey my thoughts very well. I'm likely not going to be on for a week, so I can clarify/respond then.

[Seventh]

You could argue all that, sure, but in the end, she still survived and in some ways got a happy ending, one that I don't think such a selfish and arguably despicable character even remotely deserves.

Furthermore, her wish wasn't "so that I can go back and SUCCEED IN protecting Madoka" just that "I can go back and protect Madoka". So, to that end, if she goes back in time and protects Madoka even ONCE, if someone shoots Madoka and kills her five minutes later, she's still gotten her wish. To that end, I'd argue she got her wish over and over without any REAL cost.

[BleachBummer]

You could argue all that, sure, but in the end, she still survived and in some ways got a happy ending, one that I don't think such a selfish and arguably despicable character even remotely deserves.

Furthermore, her wish wasn't "so that I can go back and SUCCEED IN protecting Madoka" just that "I can go back and protect Madoka". So, to that end, if she goes back in time and protects Madoka even ONCE, if someone shoots Madoka and kills her five minutes later, she's still gotten her wish. To that end, I'd argue she got her wish over and over without any REAL cost.

Your missing the point. She wwanted to protect Madoka from dying or becoming a witch from the beginning and up to the events of Walpurgis Night, or maybe even further. She was doing this because Madoka was the first person who she made friend's with. It makes sence seeing how clumsy and scared Homura was back then. She isn't selfish, she is caring but hiding it with a cold personality. She isn't despicable, that's just your opinion. If you look at the fan listings, Homura is probably one of the most popular characters in the series.

I am really getting annoyed on how you can't just drop and accept the ending is how it is and want it your way. Just let it go and understand the ending is how it is and there is nothing you can do or complain about to change it. All writters must come to terms on how they want the series to end, sometimes it remains undesided until the end. As fans, we must learn to accept the way the ending goes even if we don't like it.

[vampko]

I don't really agree with that way of thinking.

It's their choice whether they don't like the ending Bleach. Don't let it get to you so much.

[Seventh]

She isn't selfish, she is caring but hiding it with a cold personality. She isn't despicable, that's just your opinion. If you look at the fan listings, Homura is probably one of the most popular characters in the series.

That's all well and good, but being despicable is something that's opinion based, and she is EXTREMELY selfish - possibly the most selfish character in the entire series. Furthermore, she's caring... to Madoka, yes, but no, she's honestly cold towards other characters - there's no faking there - and even manipulative, all for the sake of Madoka. This is her selfishness: as long as Madoka lives, everyone else can die for all she cares.

That is selfish. Homura was given a great power and, instead of trying to band together and find a way to defeat "the great evil" or whatever (akin to, say, how Rika of Higurashi had to deal with her crap), Homura falls short in that she's so obsessed with Madoka she can only focus on Madoka, never look to the other girls as potential allies in her true cause (only as far as defeating Walpurgis, and only occasionally - otherwise, she herself says they're in the way and that she herself doesn't get rid of them because it would upset Madoka). Homura and her obsession was her own worst enemy, and the fact that never bit her where it hurts is, I think, Madoka's greatest failing.

Not only is she selfish, she's flawed (as all decent characters are), and even mentally disturbed on some levels, I'd argue. And that's great - she had the potential to be a great, flawed character. But the ending blew it big time.

And keep in mind, I don't think I've said she's a BAD character. A detestable character, sure, and a selfish one, but that doesn't make her bad. I'm just not a fan.

[quote="BleachBummer"]I am really getting annoyed on how you can't just drop and accept the ending is how it is and want it your way. Just let it go and understand the ending is how it is and there is nothing you can do or complain about to change it. All writters must come to terms on how they want the series to end, sometimes it remains undesided until the end. As fans, we must learn to accept the way the ending goes even if we don't like it.
Except I'm not trying to change it. Heck, I even said from the beginning that I don't think the movie is going to do anything for my "evil cause" or whatever. I'm just explaining why I believe the ending wasn't good, whereas the rest of the series was. Chill out. :U

[myskaros]

@Seventh: I feel that "selfish" probably isn't the first adjective most people would use to describe Homura. Cold, obsessive, single-minded, those stand out. Selfish? Not so much. Is she selfish? Sure, but I don't that that's a trait that defines her character. Although you could make the argument that it's a subcategory of "obsessive." If I had to label any single character in the series as selfish, I'm probably more likely to pick Sayaka. All my opinion, so it's all awash.

She isn't selfish, she is caring but hiding it with a cold personality. She isn't despicable, that's just your opinion. If you look at the fan listings, Homura is probably one of the most popular characters in the series.

I like how you contradict yourself. You're free to think what you will, that she is (not) selfish or caring. That's still your opinion. Seventh thinks she's despicable. That's his opinion. At some point, either one of you is going to read an argument made by the other and say "Oh, you've convinced me, we are of the same mind now. Woo!" Or, you'll just have to agree to disagree. However, it seems kind of counterproductive to deny someone else's stance as an opinion; it's an argument, that's a given.

And, popularity has nothing to do with how despicable a character is. Ever seen Death Note? Light's the biggest jerkwad in the series, but he's also probably the most popular. Perspective changes everything.

[vampko]

Sayaka's my second favorite character, and I don't like Homura at all. She's mainly popular because people tend to like obsessive characters for some odd reason.

Kyouko's my favorite ~

[BleachBummer]

And, popularity has nothing to do with how despicable a character is. Ever seen Death Note? Light's the biggest jerkwad in the series, but he's also probably the most popular. Perspective changes everything.

I've seen Death Note. And if you think Light is possibly the most popular you obviously haven't been to my High School. Everyone who knew about Death Note hated Light and loved L, especially the girls. Oh god, the amount of L fangirls at my High School was amazing, and one of my friends was by far the biggest L fangirl in exsistance. As in she would stalk him if he were real, and further more (WARNING! This shows how big of a L fangirl she is and will shock you if your not prepared, highlight at your own risk)

Spoiler:

rape him

.

[vampko]

And, popularity has nothing to do with how despicable a character is. Ever seen Death Note? Light's the biggest jerkwad in the series, but he's also probably the most popular. Perspective changes everything.

I've seen Death Note. And if you think Light is possibly the most popular you obviously haven't been to my High School. Everyone who knew about Death Note hated Light and loved L, especially the girls. Oh god, the amount of L fangirls at my High School was amazing, and one of my friends was by far the biggest L fangirl in exsistance. As in she would stalk him if he were real, and further more (WARNING! This shows how big of a L fangirl she is and will shock you if your not prepared, highlight at your own risk)

Spoiler:

rape him

.

Lucky for L he's a fictional character

[myskaros]

I've seen Death Note. And if you think Light is possibly the most popular you obviously haven't been to my High School.

You guessed correctly, I have not been to your high school. Also, I suppose you're right anyway, I forgot all the characters in that series except Light and his shinigami. Did a random Google search on "death note light more popular than l" and, of the 2 results that actually had what I wanted, L was more popular >_>

Regardless, I still stand by my statement of how despicable a character is doesn't correlate with popularity. Nowadays, it's more likely to be based on screen time + "moe levels" than anything else. If Homura was fat or emaciated, or otherwise drawn as "less attractive than the other characters," I doubt she'd be nearly as popular.

[Seventh]

@Seventh: I feel that "selfish" probably isn't the first adjective most people would use to describe Homura. Cold, obsessive, single-minded, those stand out. Selfish? Not so much. Is she selfish? Sure, but I don't that that's a trait that defines her character. Although you could make the argument that it's a subcategory of "obsessive." If I had to label any single character in the series as selfish, I'm probably more likely to pick Sayaka. All my opinion, so it's all awash.

Hmmm, perhaps! I might be inclinded to agree with you, at least on Sayaka, and heck, if it says anything, Sayaka's my favorite character by far.

Of course, we could get into the argument as to whether or not Homura really cared about Madoka or just cared about/was obsessed with the friendship that was given to her, which in turn could toss some selfishness into the pot. Either way, yeah, obsessive and single-minded are the ones to work with.

Truth be told, I'd probably like her a lot more if there had been a cliff-hanger ending or if these flaws of hers had been addressed better, not to mention if more people noticed them, but as that's not the case, well-- Yeah. Still worth it to talk about her I suppose - heck, maybe the movies will help her one way or the other.

... And Bleach, well, fangirls are like that. I'm more partial to Misa, Rem, and... yeah, Light and Ryuk myself, but more because they were interesting characters (and flawed to hell, especially in Light's case) than because they were ~teh evil~. I was pretty fond of Matsuda too, so yeah.

Regardless, I still stand by my statement of how despicable a character is doesn't correlate with popularity. Nowadays, it's more likely to be based on screen time + "moe levels" than anything else. If Homura was fat or emaciated, or otherwise drawn as "less attractive than the other characters," I doubt she'd be nearly as popular.

Well said.

[BleachBummer]

You guessed correctly, I have not been to your high school. Also, I suppose you're right anyway, I forgot all the characters in that series except Light and his shinigami. Did a random Google search on "death note light more popular than l" and, of the 2 results that actually had what I wanted, L was more popular >_>

Regardless, I still stand by my statement of how despicable a character is doesn't correlate with popularity. Nowadays, it's more likely to be based on screen time + "moe levels" than anything else. If Homura was fat or emaciated, or otherwise drawn as "less attractive than the other characters," I doubt she'd be nearly as popular.

I obviously wasn't arguing against you for the popularity comment, I was just making a point that sometime even the most unexpected characters are the most popular. Can't say its the same for Kyubey, majority of the fans hate him and I do to. May he burn in a ball of nuclear fusion created by Okuu (a.k.a. Utsuho Reiuji) like she did in that truely awsome and epic YouTube video I saw.

... And Bleach, well, fangirls are like that. I'm more partial to Misa, Rem, and... yeah, Light and Ryuk myself, but more because they were interesting characters (and flawed to hell, especially in Light's case) than because they were ~teh evil~. I was pretty fond of Matsuda too, so yeah.

I am aware of this, it's just scary how my friend was one of the biggest I've seen so far. Also, even if your still not happy with the ending. Just think of this to make you happy since your, as you say, ~evil~. There is going to be tons of unexpecting little girls wanting to watch Madoka due to the light nature of the U.S. Trailer when they have no idea what is truely in store for them.

Parents, prepare to have screaming little girls if they are going to watch this series.

[LAMV]

Regardless, I still stand by my statement of how despicable a character is doesn't correlate with popularity. Nowadays, it's more likely to be based on screen time + "moe levels" than anything else. If Homura was fat or emaciated, or otherwise drawn as "less attractive than the other characters," I doubt she'd be nearly as popular.

Perhaps the same can be said for all anime characters.