Puella Magi Madoka Magica

[Seventh]

Pity that about QB. Unless the movie/Kazumi changes his role drastically, I consider him/it extremely misunderstood.

[vampko]

Pity that about QB. Unless the movie/Kazumi changes his role drastically, I consider him/it extremely misunderstood.

It all depends on which side you think is more important to live. both sides are only trying to maintain their existence.

[Seventh]

Well, to me, if you disregard Madoka's asspull at the end (and I tend to), then he's essentially helped humanity evolved to what it is, and then some, at the cost of some life force that goes towards the sustainment of the universe anyway. I could easily make the argument QB is the hero of the series (if not for Madoka's asspull), except the movie might turn his role around completely, not to mention I've got no idea what he's up to in Kazumi yet.

[vampko]

Well, to me, if you disregard Madoka's asspull at the end (and I tend to), then he's essentially helped humanity evolved to what it is, and then some, at the cost of some life force that goes towards the sustainment of the universe anyway. I could easily make the argument QB is the hero of the series (if not for Madoka's asspull), except the movie might turn his role around completely, not to mention I've got no idea what he's up to in Kazumi yet.

Except...he's causing people to kill themselves, to sustain his own world. He's not doing anything to help the universe. They're both being selfish. Both of them just want to live. It's a parisitic relationship. All the whatever they're called are doing, is making sure people don't die off completely, since they're such a great energy force. And humanity would have evolved regardless with or without the Incubators' help. It just sped up things so that they could provide energy for everyone.

To be honest, the whole 'everything was made possible by aliens' is a plot device I find to be weak. And that was one of the weakest points of the show really. I doubt you'll agree, most no one agrees with me on a few points and this is one of them.

[BleachBummer]

Except...he's causing people to kill themselves, to sustain his own world. He's not doing anything to help the universe. They're both being selfish. Both of them just want to live. It's a parisitic relationship. All the whatever they're called are doing, is making sure people don't die off completely, since they're such a great energy force. And humanity would have evolved regardless with or without the Incubators' help. It just sped up things so that they could provide energy for everyone.

To be honest, the whole 'everything was made possible by aliens' is a plot device I find to be weak. And that was one of the weakest points of the show really. I doubt you'll agree, most no one agrees with me on a few points and this is one of them.

Except for me and those who hate Kyubey. Plus may I add he really doesn't care about the human since he is emotionless, not to mention that while he says he doesn't know what "trick" means he let Kyoko get killed before Madoka's wish saying there could possibly be a way to turn Sayaka back from a Witch when he said after that to Homura that is was certainly impossible.

Not to mention there is this from Dram CD 2:

Spoiler:

Madoka naked in the bathtub. Again, audio-fanservice only.
Kyubey trying to convince to an exasperated Madoka that "he" doesn't see himself as male (in human terms) so "he" doesnt understand why "he" isn't allowed to be in the bathroom with a naked Madoka.
Madoka isnt buying it.
Neither are the fans.
Kyoubey: "Madoka, why are you treating me as if I’m a pervert? Even if I see you in the nude, I can’t feel anything!"
Ouch! He also hurt Madoka's pride as a woman.

Yeah... I have no comment here after this.

Also, I've actually looked up what Kyubey did in Kazumi, and I hate him even more for it.

(EDIT: I've never listened to the Dram CD, nor will I probably listen to it, I just got this from a good source. If you don't believe me, go ahead and find the Dram CD and find out for yourself)

[LAMV]

Not to mention there is this from Dram CD 2:

Spoiler:

Madoka naked in the bathtub. Again, audio-fanservice only.
Kyubey trying to convince to an exasperated Madoka that "he" doesn't see himself as male (in human terms) so "he" doesnt understand why "he" isn't allowed to be in the bathroom with a naked Madoka.
Madoka isnt buying it.
Neither are the fans.
Kyoubey: "Madoka, why are you treating me as if I’m a pervert? Even if I see you in the nude, I can’t feel anything!"
Ouch! He also hurt Madoka's pride as a woman.

Hahaha, damn Kyubey. I wonder how Madoka reacted to that.

Also:

Spoiler:

It's kind of funny how he claims to have no concept of gender and doesn't understand why it's bad to be in a bath with her, but he somehow knows what a pervert is.

[vampko]

Yeah I almost wonder

Spoiler:

if Kyuubey was also lying about the lack of emotions.

[myskaros]

More like drama CDs seem to tone down the continuity and turn up the fanservice.

[vampko]

More like drama CDs seem to tone down the continuity and turn up the fanservice.

My wondering has nothing to do with the drama CDs.

Spoiler:

I contemplated this after Kyuubey had flat out lied multiple times in the show. He glosses it over, and denies it very amirably, but he did lie in the first place. Makes me think he's not really a race without emotions, but really they're just trying to play with humans because they find it entertaining.

[Seventh]

More like drama CDs seem to tone down the continuity and turn up the fanservice.

Nooot to mention that that one in particular was one big joke anyway. I mean, it was about hunting for panties for crying out loud.

Except...he's causing people to kill themselves, to sustain his own world. He's not doing anything to help the universe. They're both being selfish. Both of them just want to live. It's a parisitic relationship. All the whatever they're called are doing, is making sure people don't die off completely, since they're such a great energy force. And humanity would have evolved regardless with or without the Incubators' help. It just sped up things so that they could provide energy for everyone.

To be honest, the whole 'everything was made possible by aliens' is a plot device I find to be weak. And that was one of the weakest points of the show really. I doubt you'll agree, most no one agrees with me on a few points and this is one of them.

In Madoka canon, we have no idea if humanity would have evolved or not. Using the "fact" that Kyubey doesn't lie, just twist the truth, however, we can assume we probably wouldn't have in the universe of Madoka. If we say QB can lie, however, then we can completely invalidate the ending based on his "Madoka can become God" line, assume he was saying it to try to get her to make a wish, and call it the asspull that it is.

But I disgress - it's not parisitic at all. What they've done is keep the universe alive, help humanity evolve, all at the likely cost of far less than 0.000001% of all humans that have ever lived. Using those numbers, as an emotionless species might see it, there has been no virtual loss whatsoever and only gain.

I imagine if QB had been portrayed as a robot or something he'd get a lot less hate, which is probably how his logic works, but whatever.

As for the last bit, I don't disagree entirely - I found the fact that PMs have been around since ancient times interesting and opened a lot of interesting doors (that the ending swiftly ruined) - but everything after episode 9 (or 10, depending) was half a load of it anyway, so eh.

[vampko]

'Twisting the truth' is still lying. If you're not telling the truth, you're lying. And Kyubey did in fact lie.

I honestly see Kyuubey's race as a bunch of 4Channers with lots of power basically. I don't buy the 'emotionless' part one bit.

And where do you get this 'sustaining the universe' bit from? I only recall him ever talking about maintaining his own planet and destroying others in the process...

[Seventh]

In that case, that just opens up so many wonderful arguments for me, so hey, let's go with that. I want him to be a liar.

Emotionless or just having differring emotions/logic, either way, from their perspective, what they were doing was for the better of the universe - otherwise we wouldn't have QB AGAIN in the "good" world, still doing what's necessary.

And uh... From what he told Madoka? He told her that the energy they were gathering was sustaining the universe from being destroyed. I've never heard of what you're saying before.

[vampko]

Odd....Well I was in such a dark mood the entire time I was watching it, it's not that hard to believe I twisted teh story myself.

I still don't buy 90% of what Kyuubey says though.

If you trust Kyuubey, then he seems good if you're the sort of person that believes the ends justifies the means. If you're not, then you will see him as evil.

[Seventh]

Well, that's your opinion. Fact is, QB tells the truth, he just manipulates how/when he says it.

All I was saying is that he's not evil (that's a concept beyond him) nor is he the villain. No need to throw accusations around.

[vampko]

Well, that's your opinion. Fact is, QB tells the truth, he just manipulates how/when he says it.

All I was saying is that he's not evil (that's a concept beyond him) nor is he the villain. No need to throw accusations around.

Your concept of evil is what matters though. Again, we're looking at someone who believes the ends justifies the means. Which I don't particularly like. In real life, I'm not sure what I would think, but this isn't real life. Also, you must maintain, that I see Kyuubey as a liar. As such, your view of him, and my view of him are different.

If you don't accept that he's a liar, then of course seeing him as 'good' is always a possibility. Unless you don't believe the ends justifies the means. And since many a JRPG used that as a way to make out a villain, it's right hard to not think of the guy as evil.