Why I think anime is going straight to hell - 12 ep series'

[Neon01]

a) said that 24-ep series are awesome, here's 1 example, and b) 12-ep series don't end well, here are 5 examples.

In my opinion, the number of episodes in a series has absolutely nothing to do with how successful it is.

Fair enough... Here goes:

following this list of top 50 (user rated) and disregarding non-TV shows (movies, OVAs): http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclo ... t_bayesian

1. Clannad after story (25 ep)
2. FMA brotherhood (64 ep)
5. Code Geass: S2 (25 ep)
8. Cowboy Bebop (26 ep)
9. Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Boku-tachi wa Mada Shiranai (11 ep)
12. Mushi-shi (26)
13. Usagi drop (11)
14. Death Note (37)
17. Maria Watches Over Us 4th Season (13)
18. Code Geass: S1 (25)
21. Maria Watches Over Us: Printemps (13)
22. Monster (74)
25. Nodame Cantabile (23)
26. FMA (51)
27. Cross Game (50)
29. Fighting Spirit (76)
30. Gurran Lagann (27)
32. GiTS: SAC 2nd (26)
34. Honey and Clover 2 (12)
35. Baccano (16) (questionable)
36. Mononoke (13)
37. Kanon (24)
40. Natsume's book of friends S4 (12 slated - not finished yet, only 28 reviews, so DQed)
41. Hajime no Ippo: New Challenger (26)
43. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (14)
44. Kino's Journey (13)
45. Great Teacher Onizuka (43)
46. Clannad (24)
48. Natsume's Book of Friends S2 (13)
49. ef: a tale of memories (13)

Ok, so in the top 50, 10 shows with 14 episodes or less, plus one 16 episode show that's a little questionable. 18 shows that are the standard model of 24 or more episodes. Note also that 3 of the shows that have 14 episodes or less are seasonal with more than one entry, which pretty much invalidates them from the type of show I'm talking about.

Also, on a personal note, it's worth mentioning that none of the shows I've listed in the top fifty that have less than 14 episodes are of the type of anime I find remotely interesting. They're all slice of life/drama/whimsical style shows I really don't get into. On the other hand, looking at the top 50 shows that are longer, there are 7 shows that I count among my personal favorites. If you go back to my initial post, you can see I'm posting about my own opinions (it's right in the thread title). I never said anything about the fact that the industry is doomed, I meant that fading fast for me.

[myskaros]

If you go back to my initial post, you can see I'm posting about my own opinions (it's right in the thread title). I never said anything about the fact that the industry is doomed, I meant that fading fast for me.

I don't see where anyone was calling you out (except LAMV's trolling >_>) for stating opinion as fact. Mostly, just trying to give suggestions or reasons why there might not be as many longer anime series recently.

[vampko]

They're all slice of life/drama/whimsical style shows I really don't get into.

There's your problem.

Learn to get into them, cause they're the most awesomest ~

Might I suggest trying to go through Usagi Drop? Even for those who find 'slice of life/drama' to be dumb, they might find Usagi Drop a great show. Just give it a whirl. It's a different kinda show I'd say.

The other thing, is that 1 season is really only the standard for the type of shows that you said you didn't like to watch, so that kinda makes it hard since the problem isn't that they're 'only 12 episodes' long, it's that they're not your style in the first place.

[myskaros]

Kind of random, but I'm reading Pandora Hearts since the anime ended pretty poorly and just now realized that it's relevant to this topic. While it is more likely for a 12-ep series to end poorly/unfinished merely because source material probably extends far beyond the scope of what can be covered in a single season, Pandora Hearts is a perfect example of "anime length doesn't matter; it can still be done wrong."

With proper planning, it should have been obvious that Pandora Hearts would benefit from letting the manga run longer before adapting it to anime. Unfortunately, for whatever reason (cash grab?), they decided to go ahead with the anime, wherein the "ending" was completely bull and pretty much nothing got resolved.

So, what you should really be complaining about is not how many episodes the series has, but whether the project was properly planned before an anime adaptation was green-lit. To take one of your examples, Infinite Stratos was much better off than Pandora Hearts, with at least 4 novels released before the anime's airing, yet the series only covered the first 2 novels with no sequel in sight. No idea what happened there, but I think the series would have done much better if it got 24 episodes and was delayed a few seasons rather than pushing it out early.

[Neon01]

So, what you should really be complaining about is not how many episodes the series has, but whether the project was properly planned before an anime adaptation was green-lit.

Even if it was two seasons, shows like rahxephon weren't written for a single season as a sort of pilot, with add on seasons as options to be picked up if it does well. It was picked up for both seasons, and the script was written for the entire 26 eps from the get.

I'm pretty sure that's what I was saying. In my experience, it just happens to be MUCH worse for 12 episode anime than for 24 episode anime. It's very difficult NOT to make that association when you have examples on both sides of the isle (like Pandora Hearts, and conversely, Steins;Gate) that bear that theory out. I don't watch THAT much anime, so when at least 5-6 of the shows - which were probably at least 70-80% of the shows I've viewed of recent vintage - I actually did enjoy didn't conclude properly, I start identifying trends...

One thing is certain, 12 ep series or not, I don't like where anime is going at all.

[Nyekun]

Please be aware I did not read any posts other than the TS's.

Funds is a big issue. It'd cost about 11mil yen to make a single episode back in 2010. (Source = Myanimelist and Crunchyroll)

I'm sure popularity can be help the series for another but funds and source materials are probably the main issue.

Too be honest, I'd say it's just the specific shows you like. Not trying to be rude, but everything you've listed, other than Break Blade, is just typical harem ecchi shows. Hsotd is as well, just simply overrated. Not saying I didn't enjoy any of them though, just shows to pass time by but not something to seriously watch.

[vampko]

High school of the dead was A~M~A~Z~I~N~G

It sucks that the second season never panned out, but I never felt gipped. It happens sometimes. Think about how i felt when Dragon Half was cut? That show was amazing as well, but it got cut even before it could finish one season...

[Daverost]

(btw Daverost, I did mention Steins;Gate as an example of how it can be done right)

Admittedly, I skimmed. We're cool, then.

[Neon01]

Too be honest, I'd say it's just the specific shows you like. Not trying to be rude, but everything you've listed, other than Break Blade, is just typical harem ecchi shows. Hsotd is as well, just simply overrated. Not saying I didn't enjoy any of them though, just shows to pass time by but not something to seriously watch.

Maybe, but then to me, that begs the question - are these shows considered mediocre because they didn't get a full 24 episode arc? It's difficult to really say which is the cause and which the effect. And that these shows were the only ones that came off the top of my head speaks more about anime than it does about my tastes. I have a pretty diverse taste - my favorites range from Ergo Proxy, Rahxephon, GiTS, Kenshin T&B, Code Geass, Katanagatari, Toward the Terra, Xam'd Lost Memories, NGE, Heroic Age, Chrome Shelled Regios, Macross Frontier, Onegai Teacher, Utewarerumono, Claymore, and quite a few others. Most of these (almost none, actually) don't really fit the mold that you've identified for the recent anime, so it's either that I'm just not aware of good anime that's been released within the last few years that I might have found enjoyable, or the only stuff being made that even moderately meets my tastes is typical harem ecchi stuff.

[myskaros]

I just kind of categorized these shows on my own, not sure what they "officially" fall under.

Recent 12-eppers I really enjoyed:

Squid Girl (slice of life/comedy)
Ben-To (action/comedy)
Cubed x Cursed x Curious (action/drama)
Kamisama no Memochou (drama)
Mayo Chiki! (shut up >_>) (harem/romantic comedy)
OreImo (slice of life/comedy? kind of in its own category)
Ikoku Meiro no Croisée (slice of life)

More good short anime more than a year old:

Kurenai (action/drama)
Baccano! (16 eps, AMAZING show) (drama/mystery/action)
RideBack (I think the manga is ongoing, but I thought they cleaned up the anime pretty well) (drama)
Bakemonogatari (comedy/philosophical/NisiOisin)
CANAAN (action)
Dantalian no Shoka (didn't get great reviews, but I really liked it; definitely unfinished though) (action)
Angel Beats! (slice of life/comedy)
Ookami-san to Shichinin no Nakama-tachi (slice of life/comedy)
Arakawa Under the Bridge (2 seasons of 13 each, not sure if it was split cour or if first season brought in enough money to finance the 2nd season) (comedy)
Higashi no Eden/Eden of the East (drama)
Natsu no Arashi (drama/comedy)

[Neon01]

I just kind of categorized these shows on my own, not sure what they "officially" fall under.

Recent 12-eppers I really enjoyed:

Squid Girl (slice of life/comedy)
Ben-To (action/comedy)
Cubed x Cursed x Curious (action/drama)
Kamisama no Memochou (drama)
Mayo Chiki! (shut up >_>) (harem/romantic comedy)
OreImo (slice of life/comedy? kind of in its own category)
Ikoku Meiro no Croisée (slice of life)

More good short anime more than a year old:

Kurenai (action/drama)
Baccano! (16 eps, AMAZING show) (drama/mystery/action)
RideBack (I think the manga is ongoing, but I thought they cleaned up the anime pretty well) (drama)
Bakemonogatari (comedy/philosophical/NisiOisin)
CANAAN (action)
Dantalian no Shoka (didn't get great reviews, but I really liked it; definitely unfinished though) (action)
Angel Beats! (slice of life/comedy)
Ookami-san to Shichinin no Nakama-tachi (slice of life/comedy)
Arakawa Under the Bridge (2 seasons of 13 each, not sure if it was split cour or if first season brought in enough money to finance the 2nd season) (comedy)
Higashi no Eden/Eden of the East (drama)
Natsu no Arashi (drama/comedy)

Thanks for the lists. There are definitely a handful of titles on your "more than a year old" list that are already on my short list to check out. Unfortunately for the more recent stuff, as I've said, I'm really not into the whole slice of life/light fare romantic comedy/whimsical genre, so it kinda limits me there. But I still appreciate the suggestions. I'll prolly check out Ben-to and C3.

What you said about Arakawa under the bridge got me thinking about similar shows that I did enjoy. I guess the one example where I found this to work pretty well was Druaga no Tou. Great show, loved every minute, but the first season was a major cliffhanger and didn't resolve hardly anything. In the end it all worked out, but it could have easily gone the other way.

[vampko]

So, what is it about slice of lifers that you don't enjoy?

It always confuses me when people say they don't like them. I personally only really dislike overly gory shows or harem shows. The gory shows, because I'm not into really dark shows. I get too attached to the characters and seeing that sort of stuff happen to them affects me in a psychological way. Harem shows...basically...it's because I don't want the MC to end up with one/some of the girls. I think they're suited for someone else moreso usually. And they tend to end with everyone still ignoring all the other potentialities and being completely focused on that guy. I'm too much of a 'shipper' basically

So, why do you dislike 'slice of life' so much?

[Nyekun]

Too be honest, I'd say it's just the specific shows you like. Not trying to be rude, but everything you've listed, other than Break Blade, is just typical harem ecchi shows. Hsotd is as well, just simply overrated. Not saying I didn't enjoy any of them though, just shows to pass time by but not something to seriously watch.

Maybe, but then to me, that begs the question - are these shows considered mediocre because they didn't get a full 24 episode arc? It's difficult to really say which is the cause and which the effect. And that these shows were the only ones that came off the top of my head speaks more about anime than it does about my tastes. I have a pretty diverse taste - my favorites range from Ergo Proxy, Rahxephon, GiTS, Kenshin T&B, Code Geass, Katanagatari, Toward the Terra, Xam'd Lost Memories, NGE, Heroic Age, Chrome Shelled Regios, Macross Frontier, Onegai Teacher, Utewarerumono, Claymore, and quite a few others. Most of these (almost none, actually) don't really fit the mold that you've identified for the recent anime, so it's either that I'm just not aware of good anime that's been released within the last few years that I might have found enjoyable, or the only stuff being made that even moderately meets my tastes is typical harem ecchi stuff.

Actually you just answered your own question. Just about, not everything else you've listed doesn't fall into the harem/ecchi/fanservice type show and are actually more serious.

There are definitely a handful of titles on your "more than a year old" list that are already on my short list to check out. Unfortunately for the more recent stuff, as I've said, I'm really not into the whole slice of life/light fare romantic comedy/whimsical genre, so it kinda limits me there. But I still appreciate the suggestions. I'll prolly check out Ben-to and C3

To be truthfully honest, slice of life/romance shows are probably better in 12~13 episodes as well, because if they were 24~26 episodes, it'd simply just drag on. Not saying some shows can't do it though. So I'd check them out if you can. I will say though, that multiple series listed above do are open ended.

[Neon01]

So, why do you dislike 'slice of life' so much?

It's not that I hate them, I just don't find them engrossing at all. One thing about them is that they're often populated by very young characters, and that doesn't entertain me. In fact, the ONLY reason I didn't care that much for Eureka 7 was because the main character was just too young.

Further, it just seems that the basic premise of these shows is so very....basic. It sometimes goes like,

"Boy X and his girl cousin Y make a promise to be together when they're older. Girl Y returns to Japan from living abroad. She finds Boy X attractive (despite no real quality of character) and unattached, and becomes infatuated. Depending on girl Y archetype (including my most reviled archetype in all of anime - the Tsundere), this leads to her either beating him over the head for nothing, blushing a lot, trying to please him, being servile, completely oblivious to her surroundings, or just plain nutty. Hijinks ensue, and eventually boy X displays his sweet and tender nature (whether he likes it or not), followed by his proclamation to protect girl Y. Some light, but easily dispatched, threat appears, and Boy X addresses it in short order. Boy X and girl Y end up together." Amnesia can and will feature heavily also.

Now, on the surface, I'll grant that this is similar to a LOT of anime, but with slice of life type of stuff, there's usually not enough in the "hijinks ensue" part to keep me entertained. It's all just daily minutiae type stuff. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a really _good_ coming of age story, but usually it needs more conflict and drama than I tend to see in slice of life shows.

Let me be clear, I'm also not trying to attack slice of life, because I know a lot of people love it and more power to them. Everyone should be able to watch what they like. 90% of the rest of anime (including much of the stuff I enjoy) is just as formulaic.

Actually you just answered your own question. Just about, not everything else you've listed doesn't fall into the harem/ecchi/fanservice type show and are actually more serious.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. This doesn't really disprove my statement about the decline of anime [<--opinion] on account of poorly conceived shows - usually of the 12 ep variety - and a general lack of creativity compared to how things used to be.

To be truthfully honest, slice of life/romance shows are probably better in 12~13 episodes as well, because if they were 24~26 episodes, it'd simply just drag on. Not saying some shows can't do it though. So I'd check them out if you can. I will say though, that multiple series listed above do are open ended.

I think I would agree with you there. Shorter slice of life shows are definitely more tolerable to me, but I still want a resolution. I'm even less willing to commit to a 12 episode arc that's probably not going to sufficiently wrap the show up, especially if it's a show I only find mildly entertaining (at best). Personally I think slice of life is best done in OVAs or movies.

Which of the shows mentioned don't wrap up? I'll make a note to avoid.

[vampko]

Sounds like you've auto called 'romcom' slice of life

Slice of life involves MUCH more than just 'romcom'.

And that premise...I don't see it very often in the shows I watch.

The 'youngness' is pretty prevalent though. Since they're usually in Highschool and whatnot.

What do you think of Nichijou? Do you realize that's a slice of life show?