Localization Discussion

Official forum of this turn-based RPG for the PS3
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Ultimate_Nova_X
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:07 pm

Houk wrote:This is why people call you extreme. If you honestly think our standard operating procedure is to throw the original text out the window and do whatever we want - as in, that is our standard philosophy and not the exception, then that is an extreme viewpoint to take, and is certainly untrue.

And again, your products show otherwise.
Houk wrote:While we might not always adhere to what you might consider the literal translation (which is itself a subjective term) we certainly do our best to adhere as closely as possible to the spirit of the original.

You change names by overthinking them at an inconsistent standard, you change up jokes and references (again, arbitrarily), you even change character personalities, you change almost a piece of every aspect of a game.

If you actually mean what you say, then you have no clue at all what "adhere as closely as possible to the spirit of the original" means. That or you're just flat-out lying.
Houk wrote:At times we have strayed from that to our detriment, but it's not our standard approach.


Again, the results of your products makes it seem this practice is pretty standard.

Houk wrote:If, for example, you're opposed to anything but the most literal rendering of a character's name exactly as pronounced/written in the original Japanese, regardless of how those names are perceived by English speakers, then yeah, I can see why you wouldn't see eye-to-eye with our approach. But I absolutely believe that there are times in which changing a character's name might lead it away from the literal but also leads it much close to the actual intent of the original.

If you think people don't know of a case where the Japanese name in question could be written in English without changing name, I ask you who is the extreme one now?

People like me would not be okay with "Megaman and Roll", which is true. However, you seem to think that we would not be okay with "Rockman and Roll" as well, and we would only be okay with "Rokkuman and Rooru", which certainly isn't true.

ロックマン to Rockman is NOT changing the name, it's a mere translation. Rokkuman would be a transliteration (I think I used the word right). And Megaman is an outright change. You need to understand the difference. It's common sense, it's common for a reason, or should be.

Not to mention a lot of Japanese names have an official English spelling for them nowadays. Like *ahem* 神次元, or Kami Jigen is Ultra Dimension.

In essence, you're the extreme one if you think people like us who don't like your changes are extreme, you're the extreme one if you think that changing an existing game (at your own descretion no less) is necessary to "match western tastes", or to "make it better", never mind that everyone's taste is different and "better" is even more subjective than "literal". And to top it off, you say that "it can never be exactly the same", which I agree btw, therefore, you can change at your own discretion, then outright deny that calling it the "exception" when your products show otherwise, is just sad.

This isn't just about the names, it's the whole mindset and approach resulting from it.

And I'm sorry I sound harsh, but it's unnerving to see the minds of the ones who bring over niche Japanese games, potentially bridging the cultural gap (if only by a little), but then just screwing everything else after that first step by a wide marge. Reminding westerners how different they are by comparison. Resulting a shield/spear paradox.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby kanade2 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:52 pm

@Ultimate_Nova_X

Just curious,but are there any localization companies out there that meet your standards?

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Houk » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:22 pm

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:If you actually mean what you say, then you have no clue at all what "adhere as closely as possible to the spirit of the original" means. That or you're just flat-out lying.


Okay, well, going as far as to give me the "you're either an idiot or a liar" treatment is as good a sign as any that there really isn't any point in engaging with you anymore. For future reference, this is pretty much the least effective way to get your voice heard and understood by the people working on the things you enjoy.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:43 pm

kanade2 wrote:@Ultimate_Nova_X

Just curious,but are there any localization companies out there that meet your standards?


You mean English ones? No, not really, because NISA's practices isn't exclusive to them. It stems from the mindset of American ethnocentrism.

Houk wrote:Okay, well, going as far as to give me the "you're either an idiot or a liar" treatment is as good a sign as any that there really isn't any point in engaging with you anymore. For future reference, this is pretty much the least effective way to get your voice heard and understood by the people working on the things you enjoy.

Sugar-coating my statements (at the risk of you misunderstanding) just so you could dodge them easier. Or don't, only for you to still dodge the statements because they hit too hard.

You always win, eh Houk?

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby xizro345 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:52 pm

Seventh wrote:
That's all I'll say for now though - as I've said, unless I'm shown anything to make me think otherwise (namely if I hear any possible toku references got cut! hint hint!!), TDA gave me faith in how this is being handled for the most part, at least as far as the dialogue goes, so I can live with some name changes if that part of the game is okay. :geek:


I do not have faith instead 8P While he went and explained the reasonings which was good to see his point of view, I still think they're massive overthinking and are extremely weak.
Following the reasoning laid out to the extreme, I could challenge the name used for Shalman, "Sherman" because it confuses me, the only Sherman I know is a tank.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Excelsia » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:59 pm

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:
kanade2 wrote:Just curious,but are there any localization companies out there that meet your standards?

You mean English ones? No, not really, because NISA's practices isn't exclusive to them. It stems from the mindset of American ethnocentrism.

That's one hell of a generalized blanket assumption if ever I've heard one. I would say this proves your personal bias beyond a shadow of a doubt far more strongly than any of your previous arguments thus far.

Having gained this insight, I believe I now better understand why you are the way you are.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Seventh » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:01 pm

xizro345 wrote:I do not have faith instead 8P While he went and explained the reasonings which was good to see his point of view, I still think they're massive overthinking and are extremely weak.
Following the reasoning laid out to the extreme, I could challenge the name used for Shalman, "Sherman" because it confuses me, the only Sherman I know is a tank.
Well, I'm referring to a conversation we had over PM, so that's understandable. :lol: I do agree with you on the names, but I'll hear those anyway - my concern is with the dialogue first and foremost.

That said, I do believe Sherman is a real name (though more of a last name as far as I know). And there's the whole R/L thing to consider too.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:05 pm

Excelsia wrote:That's one hell of a generalized blanket assumption if ever I've heard one. I would say this proves your personal bias beyond a shadow of a doubt far more strongly than any of your previous arguments thus far.

Having gained this insight, I believe I now better understand why you are the way you are.

Ouch, did I just hit a nerve? It takes a non-American to know an American, and considering I'm from Canada up north, where we get many visitors from the south, and therefore having an insight of how they think, along with many forms of their entertainment, you actually think I don't know what I'm talking about?

Sure not everyone from that country is like that. But that goes for anything, generalizations aren't meant to be 100% accurate.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby xizro345 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:06 pm

Well, I'm referring to a conversation we had over PM, so that's understandable. :lol: I do agree with you on the names, but I'll hear those anyway - my concern is with the dialogue first and foremost.

That said, I do believe Sherman is a real name (though more of a last name as far as I know). And there's the whole R/L thing to consider too.



I honestly have no faith in the localization. NISA has proven, at least to me, that they have an approach that doesn't fit my own ideas and that I find from questionable at best (names) to down-right terrible (the changes to Trick's dialogues in Neptune Mk2, the Atelier name changes, the whole tonal shift in Neptune V's dialogues).
Why would things change for FFF? It's not like they changed their policies of their modus operandi.
And as for the "Sherman" analogy, I used just as a reductio ad absurdum, to point out you will always find people that are confused by names.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Excelsia » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:29 pm

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Sure not everyone from that country is like that. But that goes for anything, generalizations aren't meant to be 100% accurate.

By your own logic, then, that would mean you cannot claim with 100% certainty that every single english localization company would follow the same practices. To simply assume so is folly.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:33 pm

Excelsia wrote:
Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Sure not everyone from that country is like that. But that goes for anything, generalizations aren't meant to be 100% accurate.

By your own logic, then, that would mean you cannot claim with 100% certainty that every single english localization company would follow the same practices. To simply assume so is folly.

Well that's on you right? Since you were the one that asked. EDIT: My bad, it was kanade2, not you, I apologize.

And so what? Each company is different, that's a given, what's your point?
Last edited by Ultimate_Nova_X on Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Excelsia » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:40 pm

The forumer "kanade2" was the one who asked, actually.

My point, however, was that you've undermined your own reason for claiming that no english localization company can meet your standards by admitting yourself that generalizations are not, in fact, 100% accurate.

Which brings us right back to my previous post.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:06 am

Excelsia wrote:The forumer "kanade2" was the one who asked, actually.


My apologies. Was going to edit that out but it just slipped by. I guess I'll do it after this post.

Excelsia wrote:My point, however, was that you've undermined your own reason for claiming that no english localization company can meet your standards by admitting yourself that generalizations are not, in fact, 100% accurate.

The general thing however, is that despite each company is different, they're mindset towards the industry is in general, quite similar. And asking to be 100% accurate in everything is in itself, a logical fallacy, believe it or not.

What you're saying is kind of similar to we should give up on entertainment altogether, since no entertainment can please everyone.

I remember Dood (in this very topic) asking me if the reverse happened, as in if Japan were to "Japanize" an American game, and he thought my stance would be allowing that to pass, when it in fact, it was exactly the same.

The kicker? It doesn't happen nearly as much in reverse at all. Which really supports my view give on the US.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Excelsia » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:47 am

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:And asking to be 100% accurate in everything is in itself, a logical fallacy, believe it or not.

Exactly. Which is why I felt that such a generalized claim was inherently flawed.

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:What you're saying is kind of similar to we should give up on entertainment altogether, since no entertainment can please everyone.

Now that's a misunderstanding if ever I've seen one; I implied nothing of the sort. I never even broached the topic of "pleasing everyone". In fact, it was quite the reverse.

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:The kicker? It doesn't happen nearly as much in reverse at all. Which really supports my view give on the US.

Not necessarily. Can we know for certain that the US is the only non-Japanese country to engage in such practices? I would imagine that similar circumstances occur when games are brought to European or other foreign markets via those foreign companies.

I have difficulty believing that the North American market and their localizers are the sole perpetrators of these kinds of practices, and even more difficulty believing that all of them are guilty of following said practices.

So if you're going to take issue with how Japanese games are handled in non-Japanese countries, well... you've certainly got your work cut out for you, heh.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby kanade2 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:45 am

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:
kanade2 wrote:@Ultimate_Nova_X

Just curious,but are there any localization companies out there that meet your standards?


You mean English ones? No, not really, because NISA's practices isn't exclusive to them. It stems from the mindset of American ethnocentrism.



Are there any English localization company that you can tolerate enough to support them even if they don't meet your standards?


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