Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Any change to the original content, even 'just removing' it, still costs time and effort and requires convincing someone to do the work (as the original devs are going to be making the changes at the end of the day).
Technically, leaving it as-is would be the 'cheapest' option, but then you couldn't wouldn't be allowed to sell it. So that's self-defeating.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby kikoure » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:58 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
Do you honestly believe that removing voices from this is crucial to bringing the game over to the west? Because I don't think it is.


I don't. But ratings boards do. And as already explained in the FAQ, the game has no subtitles, which would mean that if we did want to leave those voice in the game, the programmers and graphic designers/UX people would have to create some way to show subtitles in those scenes that wasn't obtrusive to the gameplay, which could potentially take months. The Japanese version didn't have subtitles, so the localized one won't either.



So let me get this straight. You're willing to pay the artists to redo the in-game art to please the rating boards, but you're not willing to pay the programmers to please your customers, so that they have a better quality product, for the ONE thing that they expect out of you, translate the game in English?
I don't understand. As someone who worked in customer service for a long time, I just do not get how you're able to say something like that to your customers and get away with it. Scratch that, I don't get how you can treat your customers like crap for so many years and get away with it. Between the censorship and removed content, the PR lies and contradictions, the game-breaking bugs that are STILL not fixed to this day and caused me to drop Disgaea D2 because I was tired of losing hours of progress after random crashes for daring to use a spell, I'm legitimately baffled that nothing seems to change no matter how much time passes, and that on top of that you're still apparently expecting people to trust you.

But keep hiding behind the "rating boards", they obviously are the ones at fault here.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Maledictvm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:11 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:I've already explained why the "moral agenda" argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Hell, we're the company that localized DRAE, I was the editor on that project. Anyone familiar with even the basic plot of that game (and the series as a whole, really) should understand that, if NISA does have some kind of "moral agenda", it's a pretty damn loose one. It makes no sense for us to edit things in CG2 to put ourselves on some kind of moral high ground but make no edits in any of the games we've published with obviously objectionable content. The explanation that fits all of the evidence is that ratings boards obviously didn't have as much of a problem with DRAE as they did with CG2 because of context. Which is what I've been trying to explain from the outset.

Apples and oranges. Personally I've only beaten the first DR (it was alright, but I didn't like it enough to play the sequels), but if you're talking about Kotoko's backstory and the groping minigame, then I've seen them. I'm not sure why would you draw a parallel between the two games, since it's very clear that AE presents child abuse as damaging and morally reprehensible, so even the biggest puritans wouldn't have a problem with its content.

edit: I now remember quite clearly how the situation with Mugen Souls getting butchered looked back in the day. NISA gave 2 reasons for the extreme censorship: "we don't want AO" and "we don't want to be associated with sexualization of children". So yeah, don't try to tell me that your company doesn't have a moral agenda here.

Prinny Supervisor wrote:I don't. But ratings boards do. And as already explained in the FAQ, the game has no subtitles, which would mean that if we did want to leave those voice in the game, the programmers and graphic designers/UX people would have to create some way to show subtitles in those scenes that wasn't obtrusive to the gameplay, which could potentially take months. The Japanese version didn't have subtitles, so the localized one won't either.

We're going in circles now, I keep repeating that you can't make a claim like "rating boards will give us AO for this" unless you provide evidence to support it.
But yeah, I like how you assume that "we can't put subs here" = "we have to remove it". That's incredibly stupid logic, though I guess it sums up NISA perfectly.
Now I'm wondering, why do you leave the japanese combat voices in your games intact? I mean, vast majority of the time you don't sub them.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:16 am

kikoure wrote:So let me get this straight. You're willing to pay the artists to redo the in-game art to please the rating boards, but you're not willing to pay the programmers to please your customers, so that they have a better quality product, for the ONE thing that they expect out of you, translate the game in English?


Technically, NIS (in Japan) pays them, and probably checked their budgets and planning beforehand to make sure they could afford it. Also, given that edits were needed for the first game, there's a good chance they expected this and planned for it ahead of time. Changing art is MUCH easier than changing programming, and not nearly as expensive - it's entirely possible that changing the programming would take so long and cost so much that any additional sales would not make up the difference, ultimately costing them a lot of money.

Companies, especially small companies, do not have unlimited budgets that allow them to do anything they want for the game. They have to do the best they can with the money they've got (especially everybody BELOW the budget-setting level, who kind of have to go along with what their bosses decide).

I've noticed many comments here that appear to assume companies have the money to do anything they want before releasing a game, or that spending way more money on localizing it would somehow convince many more people to buy it. That's... not how it works.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby xethyrus » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:12 am

Rednal wrote:
xethyrus wrote:I'm pretty sure any decrease in censorship would be because of anti-censorship backlashes like this once. If people didn't complain do you honestly think they would try to minimise the amount of censorship the same way?


Yes, I do. Among my reasons for believing this:

1) Companies generally want to make money. Edits are expensive, and from a financial standpoint, it's best to have as few of them as possible. This is especially true with smaller companies like NIS and NISA, who can't afford to invest as much in changes as a larger studio could. [The Business Reason]

2) The people that have to approve of all changes (and, in fact, make said changes) are the ones that actually made the game. I think their desire to continue functioning as a business is their top goal, but after that, they are fundamentally creative people, and I suspect they'd rather not make any more changes than necessary to the product they originally came up with. [The Artistic Reason]

3) NISA probably has to justify every request for changes to NIS. Their parent company isn't going to be happy about NISA asking them to do a lot of extra work for no good business reason. NIS certainly isn't offended by the content in question, since they're the ones who made it to begin with. [The Make-Your-Bosses-Happy Reason]

...and so on. The point is, there are plenty of good reasons to minimize unnecessary edits to games, and not very many reasons to make them.



Of course if they have to make changes anyway I would assume it would cost them time and money to do research to check what needs changing. If there was less pressure they could skip that research and just make more changes to cover themselves.
Also if you are censoring stuff to begin with, it could often cost them less to do bigger censorship changes. E.g. cutting out a feature could often be less work/cheaper than changing a feature. (e.g. Mugen souls).

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby xethyrus » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:32 am

On a side note. according to this the cost to rate a standard game for one platform with PEGI is €2100

(aticle form 2015, and I realsie there are some people who don't trust Kotaku)
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2015/01/13/uk-v ... rks-doesnt
(Funnily enough I was actually originally looking at this article more out of curiosity to see if the brexit would have any effect on their ratings. As in if they would stop using PEGI)

I know somebody high up in a different (much larger) publishing company who I could ask, but I don't really want to bother him out of the blue about this. I'll probably ask him next time I see him though.

So it seems that €2100 is roughly the cost they are not willing to pay to have a separate version for Europe.
And if you want to talk about the cost of making a different version for Europe the changes requires would cost SFA in work.
It would cost them less if it was in their original project plan as opposed to doing it as an after thought though. Because the uncensored version would require a subset of work compared to the censored version they could plan the work accordingly with minimal impact. SO unfortauntely it would cost a bit more if they were to have to go back and change stuff now now.

But here's the work I see required in censoring it
Picture changes - should just be a case of putting the old pictures back in the folder. 10 seconds of work.
Audio - Ideally the same as above, but if the game was badly programmed to begin with may take small amount of programming work. But from a previous statement in this thread I get the impression they aren't doing any actual programming changes to the audio. (because of the comments abotu replacing the talking with grunts being too difficult technically)
Text - This depends on how the original game was programmed. This one most likely requires some actual programming changes. (But maybe they actually programmed it well enough to begin with so that the text could just be removed from some i18n property/text file.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:37 am

A second version would also require paying to firstly make the alterate version in the first place (not free), then paying to update it separately (doubling the cost of keeping the game updated).
It's not just a rating fee. Or a quick programming job, coding is ridiculous complicated and weird stuff happens.

Oh, and they'd have to consult a different ratings board and spend time (definitely not free) back and forth negotiating what is what. Delaying it further, costing more money, and it might easily end up being a waste of time and having to stick with the same edits as the North American version.
It is not financially practical.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Havoctheend » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:24 am

Will it have annoying fog like it did in CG:IO? I need to know for "research" purposes. :D
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:39 am

kikoure wrote:So let me get this straight. You're willing to pay the artists to redo the in-game art to please the rating boards, but you're not willing to pay the programmers to please your customers, so that they have a better quality product, for the ONE thing that they expect out of you, translate the game in English?


What we're willing to "pay" isn't the whole issue. What the developers are willing and capable of developing plays a factor as well. Time is the biggest factor, of course. This picture is a lot bigger and more complex than you are assuming.

But keep hiding behind the "rating boards", they obviously are the ones at fault here.


No one is "at fault", this isn't a mistake of some kind and we're trying to deflect the blame. This is a business decision informed by our business partners, the ratings boards, and our developers/the home office.

Maledictvm wrote:Apples and oranges...if you're talking about Kotoko's backstory and the groping minigame, then I've seen them. I'm not sure why would you draw a parallel between the two games, since it's very clear that AE presents child abuse as damaging and morally reprehensible, so even the biggest puritans wouldn't have a problem with its content.


You're saying "apples and oranges" when comparing two games, but when I try to explain that games like Senran Kagura and CG2 are different enough to warrant different interpretations by ratings boards, you insist that that's just not possible? "Apples and oranges" is something that I've been trying to explain from the beginning (and a result of context, no less!). Will you not at least acknowledge that the very same logic you use to differentiate DRAE from CG2 can be applied to differentiate SK from CG2?

And just to present a counterpoint here, claiming that even "puritans" wouldn't have a problem with certain content as long as it was portrayed in a bad light is erroneous. If that's all it took, you could do anything you wanted in your media as long as you put a "don't do this" disclaimer at the front. Requiem for a Dream isn't a G-rated movie.

I now remember quite clearly how the situation with Mugen Souls getting butchered looked back in the day. NISA gave 2 reasons for the extreme censorship: "we don't want AO" and "we don't want to be associated with sexualization of children". So yeah, don't try to tell me that your company doesn't have a moral agenda here.


I wasn't working at the company when Mugen Souls was around, so I don't know the details. But I do know this:
Was it even possible to being with to alter the mini game in any way to bring it over to the US ,and EU regions while still getting the rating NISA is aiming for? [I think this answers you, but uh...]
5) No, sorry. The editing decisions were made early on, because some content was simply not appropriate (legally speaking) and they conflicted with our company's core philosophy. We are open-minded and willing to explore new things, but the stuff in this game was a touch too sensitive for the western culture at large.


Please note that "a touch too sensitive for the western culture at large" does not translate to "a touch too sensitive for us", but rather, "a touch too sensitive for ratings boards, and we sure as hell don't want an AO." Our company's "core philosphy" is not a moral stance, either: we just want to bring games to the world, and we can't do that with AO ratings. We're not crusaders.

But yeah, I like how you assume that "we can't put subs here" = "we have to remove it". That's incredibly stupid logic, though I guess it sums up NISA perfectly.


I've stated repeatedly that there are multiple reasons for removing the voices during the Motivation scenes.

Now I'm wondering, why do you leave the japanese combat voices in your games intact? I mean, vast majority of the time you don't sub them.


In those kinds of instances, crucial context is rarely presented to the player by way of battle voices. In almost all circumstances, battle dialogue translates to simple, short phrases ("let's go", "charge", "die", etc.). Your interpretation of a scene is very rarely influenced by whether or not you can understand exactly what is being said. Now, on the other hand, if two characters were fighting, shouting at one another, but then stopped and had a minute-long back-and-forth dialogue, it would be incredibly awkward to not have that translated for the player. The interpretation of the scene could be wildly inaccurate if they can't understand the discussion. This is not something that's only looked at by us, the publisher: ratings boards know all of this, too.

Havoctheend wrote:Will it have annoying fog like it did in CG:IO? I need to know for "research" purposes. :D


Nope! No fog, no censor bars.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby knightnightmare » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:58 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
kikoure wrote:So let me get this straight. You're willing to pay the artists to redo the in-game art to please the rating boards, but you're not willing to pay the programmers to please your customers, so that they have a better quality product, for the ONE thing that they expect out of you, translate the game in English?


What we're willing to "pay" isn't the whole issue. What the developers are willing and capable of developing plays a factor as well. Time is the biggest factor, of course. This picture is a lot bigger and more complex than you are assuming.

But keep hiding behind the "rating boards", they obviously are the ones at fault here.


No one is "at fault", this isn't a mistake of some kind and we're trying to deflect the blame. This is a business decision informed by our business partners, the ratings boards, and our developers/the home office.

Maledictvm wrote:Apples and oranges...if you're talking about Kotoko's backstory and the groping minigame, then I've seen them. I'm not sure why would you draw a parallel between the two games, since it's very clear that AE presents child abuse as damaging and morally reprehensible, so even the biggest puritans wouldn't have a problem with its content.


You're saying "apples and oranges" when comparing two games, but when I try to explain that games like Senran Kagura and CG2 are different enough to warrant different interpretations by ratings boards, you insist that that's just not possible? "Apples and oranges" is something that I've been trying to explain from the beginning (and a result of context, no less!). Will you not at least acknowledge that the very same logic you use to differentiate DRAE from CG2 can be applied to differentiate SK from CG2?

And just to present a counterpoint here, claiming that even "puritans" wouldn't have a problem with certain content as long as it was portrayed in a bad light is erroneous. If that's all it took, you could do anything you wanted in your media as long as you put a "don't do this" disclaimer at the front. Requiem for a Dream isn't a G-rated movie.

I now remember quite clearly how the situation with Mugen Souls getting butchered looked back in the day. NISA gave 2 reasons for the extreme censorship: "we don't want AO" and "we don't want to be associated with sexualization of children". So yeah, don't try to tell me that your company doesn't have a moral agenda here.


I wasn't working at the company when Mugen Souls was around, so I don't know the details. But I do know this:
Was it even possible to being with to alter the mini game in any way to bring it over to the US ,and EU regions while still getting the rating NISA is aiming for? [I think this answers you, but uh...]
5) No, sorry. The editing decisions were made early on, because some content was simply not appropriate (legally speaking) and they conflicted with our company's core philosophy. We are open-minded and willing to explore new things, but the stuff in this game was a touch too sensitive for the western culture at large.


Please note that "a touch too sensitive for the western culture at large" does not translate to "a touch too sensitive for us", but rather, "a touch too sensitive for ratings boards, and we sure as hell don't want an AO." Our company's "core philosphy" is not a moral stance, either: we just want to bring games to the world, and we can't do that with AO ratings. We're not crusaders.

But yeah, I like how you assume that "we can't put subs here" = "we have to remove it". That's incredibly stupid logic, though I guess it sums up NISA perfectly.


I've stated repeatedly that there are multiple reasons for removing the voices during the Motivation scenes.

Now I'm wondering, why do you leave the japanese combat voices in your games intact? I mean, vast majority of the time you don't sub them.


In those kinds of instances, crucial context is rarely presented to the player by way of battle voices. In almost all circumstances, battle dialogue translates to simple, short phrases ("let's go", "charge", "die", etc.). Your interpretation of a scene is very rarely influenced by whether or not you can understand exactly what is being said. Now, on the other hand, if two characters were fighting, shouting at one another, but then stopped and had a minute-long back-and-forth dialogue, it would be incredibly awkward to not have that translated for the player. The interpretation of the scene could be wildly inaccurate if they can't understand the discussion. This is not something that's only looked at by us, the publisher: ratings boards know all of this, too.

Havoctheend wrote:Will it have annoying fog like it did in CG:IO? I need to know for "research" purposes. :D



Nope! No fog, no censor bars.



I think the biggest issues that came with Mugen Souls were that NISA was not willing to meet their customers halfway. They could have at least left in game CGs or put them in an artbook. Even when it came to changing things such as making Tsundere to Biploar, it feel on deaf ears as the second game made no attempts to correct this. I understand you folks have internal guidelines you have to follow, but when it appears your not listening to feedback it tends to rub folks the wrong way.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:02 am

Oh this is interesting, not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious here.
Prinny Supervisor wrote:In those kinds of instances, crucial context is rarely presented to the player by way of battle voices. In almost all circumstances, battle dialogue translates to simple, short phrases ("let's go", "charge", "die", etc.). Your interpretation of a scene is very rarely influenced by whether or not you can understand exactly what is being said. Now, on the other hand, if two characters were fighting, shouting at one another, but then stopped and had a minute-long back-and-forth dialogue, it would be incredibly awkward to not have that translated for the player. The interpretation of the scene could be wildly inaccurate if they can't understand the discussion. This is not something that's only looked at by us, the publisher: ratings boards know all of this, too.
Nope! No fog, no censor bars.


I thought the problem was what the girls were saying during the minigame hence I was wondering why the moaning would be fine, but you're basically saying, if I understand correctly, that it's not about "what" the girls are saying, it's about "not knowing what" the girls say that is the problem, because then the "power distance, or perceived consent of the activities of the game"-relationship between the girls and the player is not clearly defined?
So hypotetically speaking, if NISA had found a way to properly implement translation during the motivation dialogue which gives a clear depiction of the "power distance"-relationship between the player and the girls it could have been completely fine and included in the game, without a risk to warrant CG2 an AO rating?

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:16 am

RandomR wrote:I thought the problem was what the girls were saying during the minigame hence I was wondering why the moaning would be fine, but you're basically saying, if I understand correctly, that it's not about "what" the girls are saying, it's about "not knowing what" the girls say that is the problem, because then the "power distance, or perceived consent of the activities of the game"-relationship between the girls and the player is not clearly defined?
So hypotetically speaking, if NISA had found a way to properly implement translation during the motivation dialogue which gives a clear depiction of the "power distance"-relationship between the player and the girls it could have been completely fine and included in the game, without a risk to warrant CG2 an AO rating?


It's really, really tough to say. In my experience, though? If we were able to translate all of the Motivation scene dialogue (and were as literal as possible) and put that in, there would still be a risk of getting an AO. During the early stages of the game, a lot of that dialogue is basically "No, stop, don't", which is not something that ratings boards want to hear in a sexual context. Regardless of how you want to spin it, it sounds like sexual assault, taken out by the player, encouraged by the game itself. Which is obviously something that would raise eyebrows at ratings boards.

Now, if we were able to re-write the dialogue to be more in-line with the other dialogue changes that were made (Punishment -> Motivation, for example) that would make the Motivation minigame appear to be kinky-but-consensual, then ratings boards would of course be more lenient. Of course, even with changes like that, they might still find it severe enough to warrant an AO. It's tricky.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:32 am

So the problem is really that the player cannot know what they're saying and that's why it's a technical problem for you guys...
Haha mind-damn-blown!
Thanks for answering that though, really appreciated, casts a new light on this matter, and I never thought that was an issue, I was honestly wondering why you didn't just leave the Japanese audio in and called it a day, and why you needed to translate it or remove it.

I'm genuinely amazed rating boards are so damn worried about "power distance" with pixels and fictional non-existing people, damn this world is doomed.

By the way, would it be possible to at least provide feedback to the original developers at NIS to try and have separate audio files for moaning and dialogues, if a third game is ever made? Might save a bit from the censoring next time.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:40 am

RandomR wrote:I'm genuinely amazed rating boards are so damn worried about "power distance" with pixels and fictional non-existing people, damn this world is doomed.

It's because the context is super-hard to infer, so could be easily misconstrued as just abuse, which is a definite no, as that's pretty horrible.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby RandomR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:52 am

Ringwraith wrote:It's because the context is super-hard to infer, so could be easily misconstrued as just abuse, which is a definite no, as that's pretty horrible.

Yeah, the answer I got clarified that, I am still amazed people (read: rating boards) give THIS MUCH importance to pixels and "abuse" of pixels (just typing that makes me smile).
I expressed my opinion on the matter previously in the thread, which is I don't think anything on my monitor has more rights than a pizza, not really "horrible" as I see it, the rating boards clearly disagree and think the pixels deserve a modicum of respect.

I for one eagerly await the day laws will go as far as regulating the working hours of digital assistances on smartphones and computers, wouldn't want someone thinking Siri and Cortana are enslaved.

(Note: I'm not being sarcastic towards anyone in this thread I genuinely appreciate the answers I got so far and the discussion which everyone's contributing to, regardless of them being in favor or against these changes. My sarcasm is directed at the rating boards and whoever established those criteria, and yes I understand they're a necessary cancer as without them governments then would probably be regulating these matters, which would be infinitely worse I assume. Oh well untill they get more lax there's still importing)
Last edited by RandomR on Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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