A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Tolinar
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A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Tolinar » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:20 pm

Hi. I am a long-time player. I own and have played a wide spectrum of NIS games and could speak on 18 of your subforums as well as talk about a project that doesn't currently HAVE a subforum [Soul Nomad, a sweet squad-based SRPG for the PS2] and an NIS project handed off to a different localizer [Looking at you, Mastiff] I've seen the good you've done with hot-button titles and niche games alike and you've mostly done a fine set of work. I'm proud to say that if I hear NISA is doing a title, I will take a look just out of curiosity. I know a quality voiceover when I hear it, and if someone phones in a googled translation, I know. I can even spot the differences between the versions of Disgaea.

Now that I have established my pedigree and right to speak on the topic of JRPG and localization...

I... am also an Ecchi Gamer. The library says it all, stocked end to end with titles from the years that rely on sex and sensuality to draw an audience. There are many that play it safe, some that push the line, and titles that hop back and forth over the line doing the Dirty Bird in a thong. The collection, not to brag, includes the PS2 version of Playboy: The Mansion, the PC Leisure Suit Larry games including the true reboot, Love for Sail!... and the false PS2 reboot, Magna Cum Laude... [it does not include the trash-grade moneygrab Box Office Bust] Rumble Roses and the 360 game RRXX, and of course all the editions of the pioneer game Dead or Alive Xtreme, including an import copy of 3. I also have the Senran Kagura series including Estival Versus, many games with semi-ecchi elements including the Agarest series, and a few more imports including the important Moe Chronicle and Dungeon Travelers 2, games that make no secret of their sensual nature. I bought Criminal Girls.

This is my OTHER pedigree. I've seen the good, the hot, and the disturbing, and I have the right to speak on it.

I am a prime example of the target audience for Criminal Girls 2. It's a JRPG with interesting elements. It's Ecchi. I'm what you might call an "easy mark".

Yet, I might not buy this game. It depends.
And I want to talk about why.

----
When I first caught wind that the localization of CG2 was going to be censored, the first thing I thought was "God, not again." The first game was censored and a good deal of the emotional impact of the game was destroyed.

The dynamic was fantastic. You were a disciplinarian guiding souls to heaven, though your discipline methods were just a bit dark and mature - and the voice acting and the punishment scenes reflected this.

Gone.
Welcome to America, where apparently feeling things is bad.

The comments of the front page detail "Power Distance" as the prime reason for the changes. As an outsider who has yet to see the finished changes, it appears to me that the aspects of bondage and discipline that were present in the original version are being cut away.

"Power Distance". That's quite a term, isn't it? It conjures up the idea that you carry all the power over these girls, that they have no choice but to do as you say if they want redemption.

After all. That was the original artists' design. The main character is solely here for this task. You have no identity outside of guiding these girls. You establish a name, but have no pay, [0.00 an hour] no home, no family. You must control the ladies and bring them to salvation.

They aren't required to like you... and they don't at first.
They are required to obey you... and they don't do that either... at first.. and to their own ruin, for if you fail, they are damned.

The game is to use your influence to rescue them.

"Power Distance"... it's unavoidable.
What if you couldn't start a training minigame any time you wanted?
What if they could say "No"? What if they refused your "motivation"?
The removal of the ropes from the illustrations is an illusion... and an insult to the original artist, one that I hope was born with good humor. If you can speak japanese, the whimpers just before starting a minigame in the first Criminal Girls points to the truth. They don't have any Agency to this, no choice to make. They might as well be tied up.

With this said, the important part is that the art embrace the feeling and meaning of the original vision.

There were 2 big changes in Criminal Girls 1.... one that I was fine with, and one I could not bear.

The Pink Fog in the minigames became unremovable in places, to make some of the images more modest. This I was cool with. It was an acceptable compromise that didn't harm the "art" very much at all.

The voiceovers to those scenes were removed. This, enraged me to no end.

Hours of hard, dedicated voice work by many talented voice actors vanished. The game designer scripted it very carefully, told the actors their motivations, recorded and recorded until he had exactly what he wanted - a title that inspired certain specific feelings - and packaged it up.

The cutscenes, once a detailed, unmistakable emotional expression, were left lifeless. And as if to add one last straw to the camel's back, the Option "Be Quiet" was added to the discipline page - it doubles training cost, and aside from the presence of the mask, there is no effect at all in the game. The girls are eerily silent with or without the masks.

Compare this to Monster Monpiece. The superficial art changes were numerous in that title... but the audio was left alone. As a result, the piece carries the desired emotional gravity when it should. It's a favorite, even with the censoring.

Let's look at some recent Ecchi titles and their levels of censorship and decisions with the Western Audience.

Senran Kagura Estival Versus chose to censor nothing. The game is identical except for a tricky bit of licensing over the Ikkitousen girls. [I hear he's making headway - we may get them after all!] It sold well and we all got our wonderful Collector's Editions. Plenty of DLC was also sold, which brings up Ayane - the only character that never gets naked[er.. except for one mature lady?]. Even utterly destroyed, Ayane of Dead or Alive is always wearing a bikini - and that was probably outlined in the deal and is also OK. I'll come back to that.

Various great games, including the latest Fire Emblem, opted to censor in various ways. I would say Fire Emblem took the biggest hit, with a lot of the intimacy factor lost in the changes.

Gal*Gun Double Peace not only left their work uncensored, but opted to include the pricy 90.00 DLC which cranks up the Ecchi factor a great deal. But with great fanfare, Australia's EB Games refused to sell the product, and without even a word, America's Gamestop also declined its sale.

But those developers will have my money yet. Gamestop doesn't carry the leverage it used to, and it's high time it learned the hard way. For braving the way and pioneering a new way to provide sexy content to a mature audience, 130 US dollars is a fair price to me. Other games should consider a DLC Model for ratcheting up the heat on their games - or... for example, disabling a difficult but necessary censorship decision.

Then there is Dead or Alive Xtreme 3. They simply chose not to release in the west. Many people, including me, imported a copy, and went through the rigor of buying DLC through the asian PSN... or simply didn't get the chance to buy, if they were playIng with a Vita copy. There is still money to be made there, if the DOAX3 DLC shop were opened to US customers. Even a PSN ONLY DoaX3 release would make me overjoyed.

I mentioned Ayane earlier.... the DoaX girls get skimpy, but they never go all the way. That's company policy, it's all about respecting the girls, to those guys. In my opinion though, it's all about respecting the.wishes of the artist. So Ayane keeping her bikini, is just fine.

...

And here we are, at the latest case.
Are themes of bondage and discipline enough for an AO rating? In my opinion this is the ESRB's fault, but It's not my choice to make. And I would love for this open letter to have a positive impact, but business decisions have probably already been made. What I write here probably won't change very much. All that remains is to decide whether or not NISA wasted their time trying to bend over backwards to that stupid ESRB. Our votes lie in our purchase.

So let me tell you where I stand.

I'm really upset at the idea the artist is having to alter his project for the US audience. NISA may have their policy, and ESRB has theirs, but what about the designer's original vision? it is being distorted for the sake of old men in a boardroom, and I don't like it.

If all the art has been modified so the clothing is less sexy or revealing, but continues to have overtones of captivity or bondage [tied up, restricted], it gets an OK. That still has the emotional gravity it should, a little skin doesn't change anything.

If all the art has the same level of skin, but the captivity and bondage is gone, I'll be really unhappy and I may skip the purchase.

If the audio is once again gone from the minigames, or has been modified beyond all recognition, I'm not buying it. That is too much damage to the original vision.

And if the game releases with no bondage and missing audio... but then, later it releases DLC that restores the artists' original vision [at a price up to 1\2 the cost of the original game] I will buy it the day the DLC releases.

People work hard to bring dreams to life. I'm quite tired of old men spreading the ideas that "You can't sell that type of game here" because that age is past. It is past the year 2000, we are not using floppy disks any more, and YES, you may sell your bondage themed game here in the west and yes, as long as your character design is good and the battle system is unique, people will buy it.

Thanks for reading.

... oh. Uh, I guess I have to put this in every single.post I make ever. Not that I WANT to get off topic.
Disgaea D2 for the Vita dood.
Last edited by Tolinar on Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:14 pm

Thank you for your well-thought-out response. Your passion is obvious and I appreciate you sharing it.

I will be frank and deliver to you the facts. The audio in the Motivation scenes will be exactly like the localized Criminal Girls: Invite Only. They will not have any dialogue or make vocalizations. Some, but not all, of the bondage elements in the art have been removed from some of the Motivation scenes. No DLC replacing these things will be released for CG2, because doing so would require the game to be re-rated.

I understand your concern about the artist. I have responded to that concern in the main thread, I will quote myself:
from the conversations I've had with them (through a translator, of course, I don't speak fluent Japanese), there is no ill-will or doubts about the project at all. I understand that a popular opinion going 'round is that the original creators and artists are furious that their artistic vision is being compromised and that they're disillusioned by the whole issue, but from my experience, that is absolutely not the case. I've spoken with creators who were particular about literally every key word in a game and I've spoken with creators who only care about if the end product is fun and enjoyable, but I've never heard anyone we work with express concerns about their vision being compromised. This is probably because we work with them. The original creators are the head honchos: we don't release anything they aren't 100% satisfied with. All of their feedback, positive and negative, is taken very seriously by our team.


It is important to keep in mind that NISA is not grabbing up some indie artist's life's work and twisting it to our will. The original artists and I work at the same company, we work for the same people, and our work is for the benefit of NIS and NISA. While I agree that it is a shame that their work has to be modified at all, that context is important.

Thank you again for your feedback, it was insightful.
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:05 am

That's...quite the introductory post there...wow.

If nobody minds, I think I'll weigh in too.

I'm a lover of all things ecchi myself, games among them...and for me Criminal Girls is a weirdly close to heart kinda series that somehow hit all those key notes just right. I'm a big fan...and I actually share Tolinar's issues about the lost audio...but for slightly different reasons.

Power Distance(or lack thereof) is, in point of fact, a very relevant, theme here...Tolinar did a good job pointing out why, but yeah, uber long post. I would add that its handling is a very complicated issue internationally, I say "internationally" but we all know I mean the "West". Attitudes about sexuality, control, power distance are...still very, VERY touchy subjects in this part of the world where we, to a rather scary large degree, are very hypocritical in that regard...but another rant altogether.

The key point, is that even if it all ties into the game's premise and context...it doesn't have that kind of influence to affect ratings boards. What does though...are issues like:
1. Does the content warrent a certain view/rating according to the standards of the board/region in question? If so, what rating and why?
2. If there are issues, what then? Do we edit, or do we not release in market A for whatever reason over not editing?
3. Which choice is is the more business, and by extension financially responsible and/feasible choice?
4. How do we justify that choice, whatever it is? What are the concerns and what is the most appropriate action, as a company, to take?

Despite whatever views we may have, ultimately in a culture of privatized business consumers play no part in a vast majority of those decisions above...judging with a purchase or not and data collection of feedback in investing into possible new products to market.

Another point to remember is that NISA is *not* a developer themselves, but a publisher which distances the effect and influence of feedback in that feedback can only influence gameplay choice and development of features/production...but, again only in a VERY limited way and only as the scale of the market in question permits/warrants. To put it another way, how useful is the consumer to the product beyond purchasing it?
What benefits the developer to seriously consider listening and why...ultimately, dedicated development should produce works in line with both their own intent and fanbase's wishes firmly in mind...but the other point...is return on investment and profits. Those two forces may be, and often are at odds.

The role of publishers is fundamentally different than a developer in this huge way...they don't produce anything. That's not why they exist...their jobs are to adapt, translate and market products from foreign to local markets. That distinction alone puts even more disistance between us, as consumers, and the product since it *has* to pass through that many more hoops to be marketable at all in the intended market. That distance between us and the product is increased further by needing ratings to pass, which ultimately dictate what publishers will do.

In the case of CG 2..material had to edited...and, even with the edits it got denied a rating in Germany, that speaks volumes in how much power NISA *doesn't* have and in my observation justifies its choices. A point further illustrated by the fact that:
A. Raings boards processes vary by region
B. The version submitted was the base stemming from the need to pass its home ratings board first and foremost, the ESRB even before other markets. Being a small scale niche title also puts constraints on budgeting and resources, necessitating that *only one* version coild be made. With this in mind...what could you reasonably expect NISA to do other then edit?
To put it in perspective...had NIS opened a Europe branch instead of America and gotten the license and project, and postulating that it could release with a PEGI 18 with less (or no) edits but wanted to, planned to, sell into American markets and elsewhere. ..do you really think editing could have been avoided then?
Very doubtful...not if nothing else was different, climate and all. This is of course speculative, but the point is this...NISA didn't have alot to work with AND has to consider EVERY viable market in its localization, which informs decisions like what may need editing and why.

As for the art...I'm a ardent believer that censorship blocks growth in discourse and thought. Art should most certainly offend, shock, upset and cause us to stop and talk abou it. It doesn't matter what art's form either, be it games, movies, books, or more traditional venues of art, and ideally, we should be the ones, as individuals to decide on such matters for ourselves and with ourselves.

That said, is the art in question intended as a product to be sold and bought (consumed), or is the product the art itself separate from commercial notion of "product"?

I always will take issue with comments and views that speak of artist intent without taking this distinction into account...some may see it as splitting hairs but there's quite a bit of difference, both in interpretation and intention. Plus, I feel it arrogant to proclaim defence of original vision when faced with changes made internally by the original staff after much discussion...art though it may be by definition, it is art as a product and subject to forces rooted in less than artistic concerns first and foremost...the rest boils down to what eveveryone is willing/able to do in order to preserve that intent vs. what is actually feasible. From there...we can only justifiably judge the consequences of those decisions and changes at the consumer level...Saying any else about lost artist intent is, in my own view, a rather pretentious stance by consumers on the ouside. It'd be different with things like interviews or commentary where they themselves whined about it..and they might. I'm not second guessing them, nor am I going to confuse personal mindset and opinion as legitimate defense of an artwork from the vantage point of an artist.. especially when it's work specifically made to be bought, sold and consumed. Art as product inherently puts distance between the art and artist, a point illustrated further both in its very nature...and the fact we judge it at all with our own opinions far and above whatever the artist intended anyway.

You could argue, that in a sense, artist intent is irrelevant since they can't judge a work once it leaves their hands and put to sale...and I'm fairly certain, whatever else their feelings on the matter are, understands that as working professionals.

Not...in the same way as consumers do anyway...They become unrelated in a sense.

In the same way artists in a working environment have no control over consumer judgements, neither do publishers with regards to whether a product is deemed needing edits...both cases fall on outside forces deciding things for them. Of course, you could not release a game then to a market but...that has its own issues, like ignoring markets where the fanbase, edits or not, could and would still buy it. Then there are the logistics and orders from above.

Publishers are midware here...they're job is only adapting existing material to new markets in as close to the original form as poss8ble, but we don't live in an ideal state where they can do that...or where that is dominant philosophy for every publisher. Outside forces above consumers dictate those sort of decisions and all NISA vould do was comply whether and they even agreed or not is just the same as us with getting the new material.

Nobody won in that sense, but I feel that NISA did right by us in its handling (sans the audio) with being transparent, talking to the community and meeting us partway by getting new art with Live2D effects from the developers themselves, which speaks volumes to me on commitment. .even if some policies/changes seem dubious from the ouside.

But really, the lack of audio is like the ESRB saying...we don't wanna hear the girls, but we're fine as long as you toss them in a soundproof room...because, power distance! You can easily read this as creating less consent and a bigger abuse of power distance on the part of ignoring the girls vocal protests...but "power distance!" .This phrase was used by the ESRB I believe, when cited as a potential issue...but the consequences speak volumes in interpreting what our culture really means with it...the only distance it creates is distance from the player...but this was a choice motivated by feedback and high risk of an AO in a country that has odd notions on sexuality and violence in the weirdest ways.

...Sorry for the post, but I had a lot...to say....sorry.
Last edited by Sleepyprinny99 on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:18 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Tolinar » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:07 am

Prinny Supervisor, I appreciate your candor. I'll continue to watch for new developments from NISA!

"
You could argue, that in a sense, artist intent is irrelevant since they can't judge a work once it leaves their hands and put to sale...and I'm fairly certain, whatever else their feelings on the matter are, understands that as working professionals. "

This is meaningful to me. Thanks for sharing it.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:35 am

Tolinar wrote:Prinny Supervisor, I appreciate your candor. I'll continue to watch for new developments from NISA!

"
You could argue, that in a sense, artist intent is irrelevant since they can't judge a work once it leaves their hands and put to sale...and I'm fairly certain, whatever else their feelings on the matter are, understands that as working professionals. "

This is meaningful to me. Thanks for sharing it.



Sorry, I just take issues like this seriously...and when I find thoughtful discourse I get motivated and...I'm a fan of the series.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby density » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:38 pm

*glanced very quickly over your post*
Wait. what. Gamestop america isn't selling Gal Gun? Weird how different the same company can be in different places. Here gamestop does't sell most anime games, but they get in nearly all sexy anime games like senran kagura, gal gun etc... and put them in very prominent display positions.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Rednal » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:34 pm

In most cases, they stock what they think will sell - and if there's a specific title you want, they're usually willing to order it for you. ^^
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:59 pm

I found a pretty decent article that talks about censorship in as neutral a way as you're gonna get on such issues. At the very least, I found the broad insider perspectives reflected here in the article to reflect alot about what's been talked about...bith by fans, and by NISA itself with their moves towards transparency on Criminal Girls 2.

Some of it echoes my own views, other statements echo some of those by my outraged peers. Others still don't sound very different than NISA, but definitely more forthcoming publicly.

It's from Kotaku...so I'll leave you to attest to its credibility, but I do feel it is a decent piece overall and worth looking into, if even a quick read.

http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-chang ... 1747960323

If you do read it, please by all means share your thoughts...just be mindful of proper civility please.

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Tolinar » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:48 am

So as we get closer to the big release... I am noticing a worrying trend.

Amazon doesn't have the game listed. Gamestop doesn't have it listed. Nobody is selling the English version yet.

Maybe they are just being lazy bums... but they are usually more on-point than this. Pre-orders are a big thing lately for hyped games, and this one has significant hyping thanks to some news spotlighting.


When a company decides on a "policy", it's never meaningless. Policy always has a point. Companies that have policies with no point find themselves in shambles, and NISA has been going strong for awhile now.


In particular, NIS America has a policy of not selling games with an AO Rating. That is understandable.

We can assume that policy is for 2 reasons:

1, to avoid consumer backlash...
2, to ensure the game gets sold at retailers.

We have been seeing consumer backlash from both sides of the fence from this exciting and controversial title. Some countries refuse to rate the game... Others outright ban it. It is a rough time for ecchi games lately, throughout the globe. But then there's my perspective.

Having to alter your game to suit the audience is okay, if that audience accepts the game... but changing a title so that nobody wants it.... is a mistake.

And that leads us to point 2.
What if Criminal Girls 2 becomes proprietary-only sale? Not available from Gamestop or Amazon or anywhere, but the NIS America website?

This would be a huge blow to sales. It keeps a lot of people who weren't actively stalking the title from picking it up on impulse. Curiosity is a huge factor with nifty games like this... but with no exposure that won't be happening.


There's one last little thing though, one last piece to the puzzle.
The Playstation Store.
If the game gets front and center coverage on PSN, there will be some sales, possibly quite a few. Many Vita players love to buy their games from the PSN.

Let us make a theory.
Let's theorize that, very quietly, Sony penalizes AO Titles.
Not in any way that could be paraded as censorship, such as fines or extreme royalties.

But something both "practical", to keep AO games out of the hands of mInors... yet damning to those who have no other retailer.

I believe Sony refuses to sell AO-rated games on the PSN.
This is my theory.

If I'm right, then Criminal Girls 2 is banking all its hopes on the PS Store sales. Either way, this will get ugly. This release will probably be about recovering a loss, rather than making a profit.

But if I am wrong - If the playstation store will sell AO titles ... or if Criminal Girls 2 does not get sold on the PSN... then the design decisions at NISA could only be classified as a huge, unwitting mistake, too far for some and not far enough for others.

It's tough trying to bring artistic controversy to the teeming, uneducated masses. If Criminal Girls 2 had an AO rating, but was the same as the Japanese version, the pressure of failure would fall squarely on the retailers and ratings board.

The ratings board would be scrutinized for their decision - did the game really warrant that rating?

And, even with the game only available from the publisher, it might see controversy sales as more and more buyers are going as far as to even import games from other countries for pure experiences.

NISA's un-enviable position...

The censorship might have escaped an AO rating, but none of the stigmatism that comes with it.

Does the game's release stay censored? Should decisions be repealed? Or should the game simply be canceled?

It's a huge cost to translate games. Canceling would be the equivalent to hacking off a gangrened limb. It's almost never a good idea in medicine and it's probably not a good idea here.

Repealing changes and getting Criminal Girls 2 AO-Rated would certainly cause sparks to fly - but would the parent company, NIS, like all that attention? Without sales from the PSN, the profit might actually go down, and in this climate there's no telling what the final public reaction would be, to an AO Game being sold for a handheld console.

The smart move is the one being made... to stay the course and recoup what you can on the PSN.

This deplorable situation can only be righted by the consumer. If we don't like the vise NISA is forced to survive, maybe we should be confronting the actual parties responsible over this. Maybe we should be talking to Sony, and Amazon, and Gamestop, over their quiet squeezing of the industry...

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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby neonie » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:19 am

Tolinar wrote:I believe Sony refuses to sell AO-rated games on the PSN.
This is my theory.


Um... I hate to break your theory... And, in-fact, what seems to be the entire point of your post... But...

Neither Xbox, (Microsoft.) Nor Playstation, (Sony.) Allow AO-Rated games on their systems. At all. Not just on the digital stores, but not on their systems, at all.

Also, I think the reason CG2 isn't for sale on Amazon, or Game Stop, is because the run of physical copies they had, was limited. The Party Bag Edition, is almost sold out. The Limited Edition, is sold out. The Regular Edition, wasn't available on on NISA's website, for a day, or two, as well. I'm assuming, CG2 disappeared from Game Stop, and Amazon's store, when NISA reinstated the Regular Edition, back in their own store. :P.
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:27 pm

@Tolinar

...I get being concerned over the vendors and lack of seeing the game. But, I don't think jumping to conclusions is helping.

1. As neonie pointed out, supplies are limited and seeing as both the Party Bag and Limited Editions are all but gone, it makes sense not seeing them on Gamestop or Amazon...plus, there's still some time left here before release.
2. No platform holder(excluding PC/digital only) will EVER allow AO content on their consoles. It may be a throwback to video games being "universally family friendly and accessible" but that's exactly why AO anything just isn't practical here.
3. The game has its ESRB rating, "M"...and unless something insanely bizarre and unprecedented happens...that won't change. Any talk of the ratings being an issue is a moot point for this game and what's done is done. That point and debate has been made abundantly clear and discussed over and over by now.
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Rednal » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:21 pm

That's one of the reasons who AO-rated games are so unacceptable to most companies, and why they can't just "publish it anyway" when they believe it's a potential scenario. PC's one thing, but consoles? Nope.
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Tolinar » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:42 am

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:@Tolinar

...I get being concerned over the vendors and lack of seeing the game. But, I don't think jumping to conclusions is helping.

1. As neonie pointed out, supplies are limited and seeing as both the Party Bag and Limited Editions are all but gone, it makes sense not seeing them on Gamestop or Amazon...plus, there's still some time left here before release.
2. No platform holder(excluding PC/digital only) will EVER allow AO content on their consoles. It may be a throwback to video games being "universally family friendly and accessible" but that's exactly why AO anything just isn't practical here.
3. The game has its ESRB rating, "M"...and unless something insanely bizarre and unprecedented happens...that won't change. Any talk of the ratings being an issue is a moot point for this game and what's done is done. That point and debate has been made abundantly clear and discussed over and over by now.

1. I hope so.

2. I hope you are thoroughly mistaken when you say "ever". Things should change; the average gamer is no longer thirteen years old; the "no life" stigma of video games is passing... it is time for an update to the industry, and I believe - as in so many cases of free speech and censorship in the past - I believe that at some point, PORN will lead the way to a middle ground, and finally provide developers the full creative freedom they always deserved.

It won't be something like Criminal Girls that forces the policy change... it will be something much more extreme, that kicks up a great deal of controversy... and people will finally realize that projects like this one are just games... and always were.

3. You're right. The pieces are all played. Nothing remains now but to wait for 21 more days.

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Sleepyprinny99
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Re: A long talk about Ratings, Censorship, Maturity and Video Games

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:53 am

Tolinar wrote:
Sleepyprinny99 wrote:@Tolinar

...I get being concerned over the vendors and lack of seeing the game. But, I don't think jumping to conclusions is helping.

1. As neonie pointed out, supplies are limited and seeing as both the Party Bag and Limited Editions are all but gone, it makes sense not seeing them on Gamestop or Amazon...plus, there's still some time left here before release.
2. No platform holder(excluding PC/digital only) will EVER allow AO content on their consoles. It may be a throwback to video games being "universally family friendly and accessible" but that's exactly why AO anything just isn't practical here.
3. The game has its ESRB rating, "M"...and unless something insanely bizarre and unprecedented happens...that won't change. Any talk of the ratings being an issue is a moot point for this game and what's done is done. That point and debate has been made abundantly clear and discussed over and over by now.

1. I hope so.

2. I hope you are thoroughly mistaken when you say "ever". Things should change; the average gamer is no longer thirteen years old; the "no life" stigma of video games is passing... it is time for an update to the industry, and I believe - as in so many cases of free speech and censorship in the past - I believe that at some point, PORN will lead the way to a middle ground, and finally provide developers the full creative freedom they always deserved.

It won't be something like Criminal Girls that forces the policy change... it will be something much more extreme, that kicks up a great deal of controversy... and people will finally realize that projects like this one are just games... and always were.

3. You're right. The pieces are all played. Nothing remains now but to wait for 21 more days.


I should clarify that with point 2 that my use and emphasis on "EVER" here relates solely to the current paradigm platform holders/ratings boards/vendors...etc, etc currently ascribe to and the foreseeable future based on present trends. There's no reason to make assumptions on total unknowns here. Sadly, this doesn't fall as an "unknown" and can be commented on and described with some certainty . Whether things regarding paradigms changing, on the other hand, *is* unknown and can only be speculated on.

That's all my comment on point 2 was aiming for...the present and foreseeable future.

Sorry if my wording was unclear though.


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